@sonship saidYou are the first Christian I have ever met who claimed they were becoming like the man they believed was the highest manifestation of moral goodness - Jesus - or who claimed that this man was flowing through them in some supernatural way.
You never read when you were supposedly a Christian? - [b] "But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 3:18a)
@fmf saidSonship can make the claim that he is becoming more like Jesus, since that is what the Bible says is what happens to born again believers, but there is no reason why he should provide you with any evidence that it is true except that the Bible says it is.
He offers not one jot of evidence and makes the claim nevertheless.
And that's what sonship has done, but since you don't believe both any Christian making that claim or that the Bible is true with regards to that claim you pursue this endless line of interrogation while ignoring the substance and content of the posts he makes.
@fmf saidRidiculous. Of course every born again Christian is becoming more like Jesus. Just because you never heard anyone say it here before doesn't change that fact.
SecondSon pointedly does not make the claim about himself that you make about yourself. I cannot recall any other Christians here making the same claims about themselves as you make about yourself. You "don't know about that"? What you are on about"?
It's a no-brainer. The whole purpose of being a Christian is to be like Jesus Christ.
What in the world are you arguing about? Is a Christian supposed to provide you with a video showing some sort of external metamorphosis that you can see as evidence of change?
The change, the becoming, the transformation into the image of Christ occurs from the inside out. It's a spiritual transformation. One you wouldn't recognize no matter how many words were used to describe the process, and it is a process. One that takes a life time of yielding to the Spirit, whose work it is to accomplish, and it won't be fully realized in the believer until he has died, or is "caught up" to meet the Lord, when this mortal has put on immortality with bodies "fashioned after" the likeness of Jesus' body. The one in which Jesus was crucified, died and was buried and raised from out among the dead in.
You know, the stuff the Bible says that you claim to have lost your faith in.
So in truth, since you say you've read the Bible and understand its content, at least on an academic level, it can only be surmised that your intent is to demoralize and castigate anyone claiming to be a Christian posting in this forum, except for the few that say they're Christians, with the exception of Rajk who rejects the label, that appear to join you in your cause.
@secondson saidWhat do you mean I have "never heard anyone say it here before"? Are you not following? sonship claims repeatedly that he is "becoming like Jesus" and that "Jesus is flowing through" him, but can point to no sign or evidence or indication of it whatsoever. One of his latest gimmicks is to claim he was "speaking experimentally". Of course, I've heard someone say it here. But you chose not to claim that you are "becoming like Jesus" and that "Jesus is flowing through" you. That was interesting.
Ridiculous. Of course every born again Christian is becoming more like Jesus. Just because you never heard anyone say it here before doesn't change that fact.
@secondson saidEvidence from his behaviour and demeanour on this forum would be enough. I have seen him change over the last ten or more years but not in a good way. If he is becoming more like the man he claims is "the highest manifestation of moral goodness" in human history, how cna this not have some transformative change on him as a moral agent?
Is a Christian supposed to provide you with a video showing some sort of external metamorphosis that you can see as evidence of change?
@secondson saidAre you like Jesus Christ?
The whole purpose of being a Christian is to be like Jesus Christ.
@secondson saidI am simply asking him for what he thinks the evidence is. He has been wittering on about how it's his "experience" but if whatever he thinks has happened to him has had no detectable impact or effect on him, and even he can't show any evidence of any impact or effect, then he should just say so.
And that's what sonship has done, but since you don't believe both any Christian making that claim or that the Bible is true with regards to that claim you pursue this endless line of interrogation while ignoring the substance and content of the posts he makes.
@secondson said"Demoralize and castigate"?
So in truth, since you say you've read the Bible and understand its content, at least on an academic level, it can only be surmised that your intent is to demoralize and castigate anyone claiming to be a Christian posting in this forum
Why are you so eager to depict yourself as brittle and secure on a message board like this?
My intent is to talk to theists about what they believe and, where appropriate, compare and contrast it to what I believe, on what is, after all, a debate and discussion forum provided for that express purpose.
My interest is in observing the ways religiosity distorts the intellectual and interpersonal behaviour of theists.
Don't feel demoralized. Don't feel castigated.
@fmf saidWhat do you mean, what do I mean? You said on page 19 "You are the only Christian who has made this claim about yourself in all the years I have been here." You said it, and that's what I mean.
What do you mean I have "never heard anyone say it here before"? Are you not following? sonship claims repeatedly that he is "becoming like Jesus" and that "Jesus is flowing through" him, but can point to no sign or evidence or indication of it whatsoever. One of his latest gimmicks is to claim he was "speaking experimentally". Of course, I've heard someone say it here. But you c ...[text shortened]... im that you are "becoming like Jesus" and that "Jesus is flowing through" you. That was interesting.
"sonship claims repeatedly that he is "becoming like Jesus" and that "Jesus is flowing through" him, but can point to no sign or evidence or indication of it whatsoever"
Why should he? Are you His judge? You can either take him take him at his word or produce the evidence that he's lying.
What? Do you think sonship is cheating on his wife, or viewing porn, or drinking excessively, or doing any number of biblically immoral behaviors?
Becoming like Jesus and having His spirit live through the believer is a common biblical concept supported by the scriptures.
If you're expecting perfection you're barking up the wrong tree. Sonship's posts aren't perfect, but you're taking exception to the mundane and making mountains out of molehills.
You seem to be one of those kind of people that think they can stretch a gnats ars over a telephone pole. Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.
You're acting as though sonship has committed some atrocity so grievous that it can't possibly be true that he's becoming like Jesus.
How could you possibly tell one way or the other in here? But you think you can, and so you pass judgment, derailing the debate about the topics of discussion and ignoring the points being made.
@secondson saidSonship's posts and doctrine bear very little resemblance to what Jesus preached. Yours as well.The only thing that you people speak of is that Jesus guaranteed eternal life. Thats about it. Never are youall concerned about what is NECESSARY AND REQUIRED to get eternal life and the guarantee from Christ. Then you bypass Jesus Christ and misquote Paul to prove that you cannot do anything good enough to get eternal life and you conclude that nothing is required.
What do you mean, what do I mean? You said on page 19 "You are the only Christian who has made this claim about yourself in all the years I have been here." You said it, and that's what I mean.
"sonship claims repeatedly that he is "becoming like Jesus" and that "Jesus is flowing through" him, but can point to no sign or evidence or indication of it whatsoever"
...[text shortened]... ss judgment, derailing the debate about the topics of discussion and ignoring the points being made.
Basically you people are far from Christ and Christ cannot possibly be flowing though you.
@rajk999 saidSo you don't believe the gospel of Jesus Christ? That Jesus died on the cross, was buried and rose from the dead? That His blood cleanses us from sin and iniquity? That in Jesus alone one finds forgiveness?
Sonship's posts and doctrine bear very little resemblance to what Jesus preached. Yours as well.The only thing that you people speak of is that Jesus guaranteed eternal life. Thats about it. Never are youall concerned about what is NECESSARY AND REQUIRED to get eternal life and the guarantee from Christ. Then you bypass Jesus Christ and misquote Paul to prove that you cannot ...[text shortened]... uired.
Basically you people are far from Christ and Christ cannot possibly be flowing though you.
But you think you can add to what Jesus did by doing good works.
Have you not read Romans 5:6-10
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
If Jesus hadn't died for you, you couldn't do enough good works to get you saved even if you lived a million years.
But you add works to grace. You don't know Jesus. And you certainly don't know or understand the Bible.
Saved by grace through faith and not of works.
Have you not read Galatians 3:2,3
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Doing good works for salvation is of the flesh. Only by following after and walking in the Spirit can one be made perfect.
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@secondson saidWhat I believe and what you believe is irrelevant. You have missed the mark by a mile with your church mumbo jumbo and your twisting of the teachings of Paul.
So you don't believe the gospel of Jesus Christ? That Jesus died on the cross, was buried and rose from the dead? That His blood cleanses us from sin and iniquity? That in Jesus alone one finds forgiveness?
But you think you can add to what Jesus did by doing good works.
Have you not read Romans 5:6-10
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died f ...[text shortened]... alvation is of the flesh. Only by following after and walking in the Spirit can one be made perfect.
The gospel of Jesus Christ is something to be OBEYED AND FOLLOWED. Even by twisting Paul you should have been able to come to the correct conclusion if you did not cherry pick. Paul in the end after all that talk of grace and salvation by faith, and not of works etc etc, said clearly that if you do not live righteously and do good works then there is no inheritance in the kingdom of God. You got that? NO ETERNAL LIFE. It all hinges on your righteousness and good works.
Faith without works is dead. Love is greater than faith. So continue to boast of your faith. Without works it is worthless. The man with works will be walking past you on his way to the Kingdom of God.