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Originally posted by daniel58Thanks. Well, there's always the way of Jesus which is for people to actually become "one with God" and stop committing sin. But that would make too much sense. Instead people are always looking for a cheap way out. I guess that's why it's called "cheap grace".
People think they are "already saved" which isn't true, I'm saying the other way is better because you are always supposed to be trying.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne"Cheap grace", Does that mean people think they have to be saved?
Thanks. Well, there's always the way of Jesus which is for people to actually become "one with God" and stop committing sin. But that would make too much sense. Instead people are always looking for a cheap way out. I guess that's why it's called "cheap grace".
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Originally posted by daniel58I think of it as anything short of people following the standard taught by Jesus which is actually becoming "one with God" and stopping from committing sin. But I think various denominations use it differently where it's anything short of what they advocate as the minimum requirement for getting "forgiveness".
"Cheap grace", Does that mean people think they have to be saved?
Originally posted by Conrau KCorrect. The priest does not know if someone confessing a sin is sincere about changing. Hence the reason why the nobody has any authority to forgive sins.
All is not forgiven. If this woman does intend to have sex with other men after confession, or if she is not really remorseful, then the absolution is not valid. True absolution requires that the penitent be fully repentent. The penitent also would incur the additional sin of lying if she knew that she was not really sorry. Furthermore, before the pr ...[text shortened]... ution is valid since it is obvious that she has made no concerted effort to stop her infidelity.
Originally posted by Conrau KYou understand the difference. Catholics look to their priest (an ordinary man) for forgiveness instead of God or Christ.
[b]So at what point will stupid Catholics realise that this confession and forgiven nonsense is a sham and an insult to Christ?
How is it any different to other Christians who believe in the boundless mercy of God? Presumably they ask for God's forgiveness, eventually commit the same sin, and then ask for forgiveness again. Same cycle except that the ...[text shortened]... that just need to make a mental prayer on the spot and then they can carry on with their lives.[/b]
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Originally posted by Rajk999You must realize that confessing and ASSUMING forgiveness is scarcely an improvement. Neither system makes much sense and both go against the teachings of Jesus.
You understand the difference. Catholics look to their priest (an ordinary man) for forgiveness instead of God or Christ.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneIn the case of Catholics they are told they are forgiven.
You must realize that confessing and ASSUMING forgiveness is scarcely an improvement. Neither system makes much sense and both go against the teachings of Jesus.
In other cases nobody is told anything and they assume nothing.
Christ specifically said to ask for forgiveness of sins.
Originally posted by Rajk999Actually there seem to be quite a few who believe that all they need do is confess and forgiveness is granted which is what Conrau K seemed to be alluding to in the post you responded to:
In the case of Catholics they are told they are forgiven.
In other cases nobody is told anything and they assume nothing.
Christ specifically said to ask for forgiveness of sins.
"Presumably they ask for God's forgiveness, eventually commit the same sin, and then ask for forgiveness again...Protestants like that just need to make a mental prayer on the spot and then they can carry on with their lives."
Jesus went further than that. He said that those who continue to commit sin will be told "I never knew you: depart from me".
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWell thats all speculation.
Actually there seem to be quite a few who believe that all they need do is confess and forgiveness is granted which is what Conrau K seemed to be alluding to in the post you responded to:
"Presumably they ask for God's forgiveness, eventually commit the same sin, and then ask for forgiveness again...Protestants like that just need to make a mental prayer ...[text shortened]... said that those who continue to commit sin will be told "I never knew you: depart from me".
The facts are:
People sin.
Christ said pray for forgiveness.
People ask and hope for they are forgiven, nobody knows.
Only Christ will decide who gets forgiven.
Originally posted by Rajk999Well, it's very common speculation by many including quite a few of the posters on this forum from what I can tell.
Well thats all speculation.
The facts are:
People sin.
Christ said pray for forgiveness.
People ask and hope for they are forgiven, nobody knows.
Only Christ will decide who gets forgiven.
And it's consistent with what I quoted in the original post for this thread from the blog of the guy who went on that shooting spree:
"Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the penalty was ALREADY paid."
Originally posted by Rajk999No. The sin is simply not absolved. Even if the priest performs the words of absolution, the sin remains because the penitent has lied or has not really come with the proper intention. And you have raised a seperate issue. The matter is not whether the priest has the authority (Catholics believe that the authority is ultimately God's but that He delegates).
Correct. The priest does not know if someone confessing a sin is sincere about changing. Hence the reason why the nobody has any authority to forgive sins.
Originally posted by Rajk999You don't even know what you are talking about. Every Catholic who seeks absolution must utter these words 'Oh my God I am so sorry I have sinned against you and with your help may I never sin again' (the wording can vary between country and language). When the penitent enters the confessional they are encouraged to address their words to Christ, not to the priest. The Catechism also makes it clear that the absolution comes not from the priest but from Christ:
You understand the difference. Catholics look to their priest (an ordinary man) for forgiveness instead of God or Christ.
987 "In the forgiveness of sins, both priests and sacraments are instruments which our Lord Jesus Christ, the only author and liberal giver of salvation, wills to use in order to efface our sins and give us the grace of justification" (Roman Catechism, I, 11, 6). '
There is a part in the bible that says faith without works is dead. I don't even begin to remember where it is exactly. Anyway according to some we are saved by grace yet faith without works is dead. For example: If you have faith then you will want to spread Gods word for others to be saved automaically. It won't buy you into the hereafter though. I view it as a recruiting tool for a belief system.
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Originally posted by Conrau KResponsibility and Authority .. they go hand in hand.
No. The sin is simply not absolved. Even if the priest performs the words of absolution, the sin remains because the penitent has lied or has not really come with the proper intention. And you have raised a seperate issue. The matter is not whether the priest has the authority (Catholics believe that the authority is ultimately God's but that He delegates).
I take it you heard that expression. God/Christ for sure know important it is not to give responsibility without giving as well the necessary authority to get the job done.
Disciples and apostles were given responsibilty to do certain things and also the authority to do it.
I dont think Catholic priests are similarly blessed otherwise they would know who is lying. So God clearly did not delegate.