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06 Aug 09
Originally posted by KellyJayWhy is it that you assume that someone who is trying to live a virtous life is simply trying to get into heaven? Did it ever occur to you that maybe a person just cares about the well being of their family and those around them and wants to set a good example for his/her children? For some maybe just going to their deathbed knowing that they were a decent human being is enough.
You need Christ in your life, one without Jesus will just be someone
who is trying to work their way into Heaven by either doing or not doing
some activity in their attempts to be good enough.
Kelly
06 Aug 09
2 edits
I'm assuming we were talking about God's grace and our works, and
that turned the discussion into how one actually gets God's grace in
my opinion. That means we need a walk with Jesus Christ which by
the way has a byproduct of causing a virtous life. If you want just good
enough for your standards, why bother worring about what God, or any
one else thinks?
Kelly
06 Aug 09
Originally posted by KellyJaySo I just need to accept Christ as my saviour and then I can go on with my sinful ways?
I'm assuming we were talking about God's grace and our works, and
that turned the discussion into how one actually gets God's grace in
my opinion. That means we need a walk with Jesus Christ which by
the way has a byproduct of causing a virtous life. If you want just good
enough for your standards, why bother worring about what God, or any
one else thinks?
Kelly
- Joined
- 02 Feb 06
- Moves
- 123634
06 Aug 09
2 edits
Originally posted by KellyJayNo if you read the thread carefully we were talking about how it doesn't require good works or living a virtuous life to get into heaven. That even a complete scumbag believes he can get into God's grace simply by accepting Jesus Christ as his saviour and repenting.
I'm assuming we were talking about God's grace and our works, and
that turned the discussion into how one actually gets God's grace in
my opinion. That means we need a walk with Jesus Christ which by
the way has a byproduct of causing a virtous life. If you want just good
enough for your standards, why bother worring about what God, or any
one else thinks?
Kelly
My contention is that this is the fundamental flaw with Christianity and that living a virtuous life and not being a scumbag is more important than accepting Christ as your saviour.
- Joined
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06 Aug 09
Originally posted by UllrYep, look up Tony Alamo. The jails and the asylums are full of people who believe fervently that they are doing god's will. Pure self-delusion because their religion has never instructed them to take responsibility for their own thoughts, feelings, and actions. The judgment that counts is what you and I do at this moment. If you are waiting to die for judgment then you're an irresponsible fool. I don't want to live with people capable of following rules (they may "hear" a rule tomorrow that mandates my murder.) I want to live with people capable of making rules (the responsible people.)
No if you read the thread carefully we were talking about how it doesn't require good works or living a virtuous life to get into heaven. That even a complete scumbag believes he can get into God's grace simply by accepting Jesus Christ as his saviour and repenting.
My contention is that this is the fundamental flaw with Christianity and that living a virtuous life and not being a scumbag is more important than accepting Christ as your saviour.
06 Aug 09
Originally posted by Rajk999yes but if she is still doing it then she's wrong.
Yeah .. repent and it will be forgiven.
I have a Catholic friend who regularly has sex with men other than her husband during the week and then goes to confession and all is forgiven. Its a great arrangement if you are a brainwashed Catholic.
the "repent and be forgiven" thing only works if you stop doing what you were doing previously.
07 Aug 09
3 edits
Originally posted by KellyJayI don't think you understood the point of my post. Read what he said:
It isn't a matter of "just" beliefs, Satan believes and it will do Him no
good towards God. Jesus even says, "Why do you call me Lord and do
not the things I say?" I am very sure someone who has given their
lives to Christ will be transformed by Christ and their lives will not
reflect such horror as we are also told by their fruits we will know them.
I om me, I never knew you.", and they will be cast into a fire
that will never end.
Kelly
"Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the penalty was ALREADY paid."
In short, the problem is that the individual thinks that no matter what he does, the penalty has already been paid. This allows the individual to feel secure that whatever he does, God accepts him. It doesn't have anything to do with "beliefs" per se. Even if the individual thinks that he has a "relationship" with Jesus it essentially leaves him in the same place. He feels secure that whatever he does, God accepts him. If anything the idea that he has this "relationship" might make him feel all the more secure.
So there's a distinction that has to be made between them "thinking" they have a relationship and actually having a relationship. There's a distinction that has to be made between them thinking they have "given their lives to Christ" and actually having given their lives to Christ.
What is the dividing line?
You point to several quotes from Jesus:
"You will know them by their fruit"
"Why do you call me Lord and do not the things I say?"
"Depart from me, I never knew you."
These all point to the dividing line being not "belief", not "relationship", but following the commandments of Jesus.
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven....[To those who do not do the will of my Father] I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'
If the individual is not doing the will of His Father it shows as sin and will not "enter into the Kingdom of Heaven".
If you want to look at it in terms of relationship then look at what Jesus says here:
John 15:7-11
7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love."
Note that to "abide in [His] love", the individual must "keep [His] commandments as [Jesus] has kept [His] Father's commandments and abide[s] in [God's] love." The commandments of Jesus must be kept just as Jesus kept them. If you believe that Jesus kept the commandments perfectly, i.e., without sin, then the individual must also meet the same standard.
Jesus reiterates the requirement of following His commandments in order to have a true relationship:
John 14:21-24
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him....If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my words."
So the individual can talk about "belief" and "relationship" all he wants, but what signifies these is following the commandments of Jesus. The individual needs to be perfect in his righteousness:
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Until then, they are "thinking" they have relationship or "trying" to have relatinship, but do not have actual relationship.
07 Aug 09
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI was readin a fasting book the other day. But anyways it tlaked about having faith that God will do what you are praying for. But you still have to act(workk) on the change too.
From the blog of the gunman who opened fire and killed three people in a LA Fitness gym in Pennsylvania on August 4, 2009
"Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the pe ...[text shortened]... " pretty much any transgression against their fellow man to themselves whether big or small.
07 Aug 09
Originally posted by RBHILLI'm not sure what this has to do with my post. Did you read my post or just post this because of the title?
I was readin a fasting book the other day. But anyways it tlaked about having faith that God will do what you are praying for. But you still have to act(workk) on the change too.
07 Aug 09
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWell if this person did accept Christ he is stupid because he killed people, what if they didn't accept Christ? So in my opinion I don't believe he accepted Jesus.
From the blog of the gunman who opened fire and killed three people in a LA Fitness gym in Pennsylvania on August 4, 2009
"Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the pe " pretty much any transgression against their fellow man to themselves whether big or small.
07 Aug 09
Originally posted by RBHILLWell, this seems to miss the point of my post also 🙂 Nevertheless are you saying that you believe that anyone who commits a sin has not accepted Jesus?
Well if this person did accept Christ he is stupid because he killed people, what if they didn't accept Christ? So in my opinion I don't believe he accepted Jesus.
07 Aug 09
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneno, i am not saying that.
Well, this seems to miss the point of my post also 🙂 Nevertheless are you saying that you believe that anyone who commits a sin has not accepted Jesus?
But he might be one of those people who thinks that Jesus already paid the price for everyone. meaning Muslims, hindus, athiests, rapists, stealers, ect.
07 Aug 09
Originally posted by RBHILLAs for Muslims and Hindus, he does say, "Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus" so it seems doubtful that it's one of them.
no, i am not saying that.
But he might be one of those people who thinks that Jesus already paid the price for everyone. meaning Muslims, hindus, athiests, rapists, stealers, ect.
As for rapists, thieves, etc., are you saying that Jesus did not already pay the price for them? Which sins do you think Jesus didn't pay the price for? Which sins do you think Jesus did pay the price for?