Grace vs. Works

Originally posted by Rajk999
Responsibility and Authority .. they go hand in hand.
I take it you heard that expression. God/Christ for sure know important it is not to give responsibility without giving as well the necessary authority to get the job done.

Disciples and apostles were given responsibilty to do certain things and also the authority to do it.

I dont think Catholic p ...[text shortened]... s are similarly blessed otherwise they would know who is lying. So God clearly did not delegate.

The point is irrelevant. Whether the priest really does have the authority does not matter. Your initial claim was that the sacrament of confession somehow makes it easier for a Catholic to live an immoral life with a clear conscience. This is not the case. The validity of the sacrament depends on the penitent as well. The friend you describe is deluded.

And as I argued earlier, the argument equally applies to all Christians who believe in God's infinite mercy. They too can feel that God will forgive them and it is a clean slate again. And it much easier for a Protestant to think they are absolved than for a Catholic or Orthodox Christian. The Protestant does not have to undergo the humiliating ordeal of confessing in front of a priest.

Originally posted by Conrau K
The point is irrelevant. Whether the priest really does have the authority does not matter. Your initial claim was that the sacrament of confession somehow makes it easier for a Catholic to live an immoral life with a clear conscience. This is not the case. The validity of the sacrament depends on the penitent as well. The friend you describe is deluded.
...[text shortened]... Protestant does not have to undergo the humiliating ordeal of confessing in front of a priest.

My friend is deluded. That we agree on. She is not alone as many Catholics think that their 'absolution' relieves them of their responsibility of paying for that sin. That delusion in my opinion cannot all be their fault. They are being misled by someone higher up in the Catholic Church.

The same does not apply to all churches.

By the way, I cant remember seeing the word absolve, or absolution in the Bible. I dont think Christ ever intended for anyone on earth to act on His behalf and forgive sins.

Originally posted by Rajk999
My friend is deluded. That we agree on. She is not alone as many Catholics think that their 'absolution' relieves them of their responsibility of paying for that sin. That delusion in my opinion cannot all be their fault. They are being misled by someone higher up in the Catholic Church.

The same does not apply to all churches.

By the way, I cant reme ...[text shortened]... . I dont think Christ ever intended for anyone on earth to act on His behalf and forgive sins.

My friend is deluded. That we agree on. She is not alone as many Catholics think that their 'absolution' relieves them of their responsibility of paying for that sin. That delusion in my opinion cannot all be their fault. They are being misled by someone higher up in the Catholic Church.

Even more ignorance. Absolution does not relieve the penitent of 'responsibility of paying for that sin'. While absolution does remove the penitent from a state of sin, it does not remove the duty to compensate for the sins committed. Normally the penitent will be required to say a certain number of prayers or, if the sin harmed others, give some form of recomspence. Perhaps you should desist in further criticism of Catholic doctrine if you are this ignorant.

By the way, I cant remember seeing the word absolve, or absolution in the Bible. I dont think Christ ever intended for anyone on earth to act on His behalf and forgive sins.

Read my post above. I don't care whether you accept the authority of the priest to absolve.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]My friend is deluded. That we agree on. She is not alone as many Catholics think that their 'absolution' relieves them of their responsibility of paying for that sin. That delusion in my opinion cannot all be their fault. They are being misled by someone higher up in the Catholic Church.

Even more ignorance. Absolution does not relieve the penite ...[text shortened]... Read my post above. I don't care whether you accept the authority of the priest to absolve.[/b]

I am referring to the grassroots Catholic and what they think.
You are talking about Catholic doctrine.
Two different things.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]My friend is deluded. That we agree on. She is not alone as many Catholics think that their 'absolution' relieves them of their responsibility of paying for that sin. That delusion in my opinion cannot all be their fault. They are being misled by someone higher up in the Catholic Church.

Even more ignorance. Absolution does not relieve the penite ...[text shortened]... Read my post above. I don't care whether you accept the authority of the priest to absolve.[/b]

"Whatever you shall be loose on Earth (sin), shall be loosed in Heaven. Maybe you are right that she thinks that and maybe some others think that but I don't, you still have to pay for the temporary damage that was done, like if you stole a lawnmower, you return that lawnmower.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I am referring to the grassroots Catholic and what they think.
You are talking about Catholic doctrine.
Two different things.

Again, I do not see that as a particularly Catholic problem, if it even really happens at all. Most Catholics do not use confession since they find it extreely uncomfortable and humiliating. In Western countries, only 20% of Catholics attend Mass regularly and only a handful of those go to confession regularly. I suspect most avoid confession believing that they can obtain forgiveness, just like many other Christians, by mere mental prayer. I think your criticism is better directed at other Christians, not Catholics. Your friend is an anomaly, not a norm.

Originally posted by daniel58
"Whatever you shall be loose on Earth (sin), shall be loosed in Heaven. Maybe you are right that she thinks that and maybe some others think that but I don't, you still have to pay for the temporary damage that was done, like if you stole a lawnmower, you return that lawnmower.

Exactly. Even at the grassroots level, Catholics know that absolution does not remit the responsibility to compensate for past sins. It is not a get-out-of-jail card.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Well, it's very common speculation by many including quite a few of the posters on this forum from what I can tell.

And it's consistent with what I quoted in the original post for this thread from the blog of the guy who went on that shooting spree:
"Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend o ...[text shortened]... sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the penalty was ALREADY paid."[/b]

Seems pretty obvious that this guy lacks humility and takes forgiveness for granted. He is also putting forward a distorted idea of grace. His heart is obviously in the wrong place.

He's obviously worlds away from a mature , spirit inspired understanding of God's forgiveness. To even indirectly link the two together is highly misleading and disingenuous and consistent with your polarized thinking on this subject.

You seem to think that once we open the door to the idea of grace and forgiveness that the world as we know it will crumble and everyone will think that they can do what they like and stick two fingers up to God. It's akin to the same kind of thinking that says if we allow gay marriages society as we know it will break down.

It's simple really . Recognising God's grace means that we realise that he understands our fallen nature. That he knows we are made of clay and will not be walking a straight , flawless path to heaven but will most likely take a few wrong turns and have the odd accident along the way. It's just basic common sense that God would cut us some slack along the way whilst also exhorting us onwards on our journey. He knows that we are human beings that's all.

It just makes God a bit more sympathetic and understanding. Why anyone would want to spend eternity with a God who was less compassionate and forgiving than the average human father is beyond me.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
From the blog of the gunman who opened fire and killed three people in a LA Fitness gym in Pennsylvania on August 4, 2009

"Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the pe " pretty much any transgression against their fellow man to themselves whether big or small.

"the beliefs exhibited here are very much like many Christians including posters on this forum." ToO

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Only in your mind they are. If you pick apart what he says here you will see it is a distortion of the truth. We CAN be judged by God if we do not RECEIVE forgiveness and do not ACCEPT what has been done for us.

It's not enough that Christ paid - we have to cash in or it's worthless. Wanna know what Eternal life depends on? It depends on ....erhem....eternal life. You either have that life within you (ie Jesus living in you via the Spirit) or you don't. You can be the most perfect saint but if you don't have a "spring" (as Christ put it) of eternal life within your body / soul then all your works cannot help you. Do you think God "HAS" to accept you into heaven because of your works?

Eternal life is not some voucher that God hands out at the end of time to those who think that because they are not scumbag murdering gunmen that makes them Ok and righteous with God. It's a gift being handed out NOW -- not on the basis of what you have done (because who has or will lead a perfect life?) but on the basis of who is able to perceive that God's love stretches beyond our judgement of others.

Christ's life and death were all about forgiveness. That aspect of his ministry was what the "religious" found so offensive. That he gave centre stage to prostitutes and "sinners" and made the so- called righteous periphery figures.

So by all means go to God now and ask him to give you the eternal life that Jesus promised. Ask him on the basis that he must grant it to you because obviously your righteousness merits it because you are so much better in his eyes than the other scumbags on this earth. Tell God that you deserve heaven on the basis of works whilst others do not because they are not as righteous as you. You might like to inform God while you are at it of exactly where the dividing line is between "works sufficient to achieve heaven" and "works not suffcient to make it" . At least then God would have a clearer idea of who to let in and how many brownie points one must earn to get there.

Don't be surprised though if God gives you the cold shoulder though. He would rebuke you for your self righteousness just as Christ rebuked the religious leaders when they failed to understand why he mixed with prostitutes.


My feeling from many of your posts is that if this gunman was redeeemed and made it on the basis of Christs sacrifice you would be somewhat dissappointed. If you understood what the Gospel was really about you would rejoice at the thought.

If you don't understand that God's love and forgiveness is offensive to our human values then you don't understand how radical and groundbreaking God really is. He 's so much more than a big abacus in the sky counting our works.

Eternal life is always a gift from God - we cannot earn it unless God gives it to us because we are not the source of eternal life. God always has discretion and choice. We are always dependent on his grace. We cannot force his hand with a list of good works. How could it ever have been otherwise?

Originally posted by Ullr
No if you read the thread carefully we were talking about how it doesn't require good works or living a virtuous life to get into heaven. That even a complete scumbag believes he can get into God's grace simply by accepting Jesus Christ as his saviour and repenting.

My contention is that this is the fundamental flaw with Christianity and that living a virtuous life and not being a scumbag is more important than accepting Christ as your saviour.

You cannot do enough good works to get into heaven.
Kelly

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I don't think you understood the point of my post. Read what he said:
"Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the penalty was ALREADY paid."

In short, the problem is that the individual thinks that no matter what he does, the penalty has a ...[text shortened]... tinship, but do not have actual relationship.

The only ones that will ever receive God's grace are those that know
Him, the rest will hear the words, "Depart from me I never knew you."

It does not depend on your earning your way into the Kingdom of God
by working for it, that was done by Christ, once received into the
Kingdom of God you will be doing good works, but as a by product,
not as an entry fee to enter the Kingdom. You cannot have the Spirit of
God within you without first belonging to God, you cannot hear what
the Spirit of God is saying to the church of God without being a
member of that body, and to suggest you have to work your way into
the Kingdom of God is to suggest you obligate God into letting you
in by your efforts, that is not scriptural.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
The only ones that will ever receive God's grace are those that know
Him, the rest will hear the words, "Depart from me I never knew you."

It does not depend on your earning your way into the Kingdom of God
by working for it, that was done by Christ, once received into the
Kingdom of God you will be doing good works, but as a by product,
not as an en ...[text shortened]... suggest you obligate God into letting you
in by your efforts, that is not scriptural.
Kelly

But who knows Jesus.

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven....[To those who do not do the will of my Father] I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'

According to Jesus the ones He will tell to depart are those who do not do "the will of [His] Father"; those who "work iniquity", i.e., continue to commit sin. These are the ones that Jesus says "Depart from me, I never knew you".

See what Jesus says here:
John 15:7-11
7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love."

Only those who "keep [His] commandments" will "abide in [His] love".


It's not about "earning your way into the Kingdom of God". Rather, it's about becoming "one with God", just as Jesus was "one with God". It's about following the will of God and keeping His commandments, just as Jesus followed the will of God and kept His commandments.

John 17:20-23
"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me."

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
But who knows Jesus.

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven....[To those who do not do the will of my Father] I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'

According to Jesus the ones He will tell to ...[text shortened]... now that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me."[/i]

It's not about "earning your way into the Kingdom of God". Rather, it's about becoming "one with God", just as Jesus was "one with God".
------------------------ToOne----------------------------------

Agreed. But what does "one with God" actually mean? Jesus implied that this meant being actually one with him in Spirit. Via the bread and wine metaphor he implied that being "one with God" actually meant REALLY being one with God and part of his body. If you then read all the stuff Jesus said about the Holy Spirit it all comes together.

I think being "one with God" in Christianity is actually far more literal than you imagine. Jesus said that "on that day you will know that I am in you and you are in me" - do you know what he was refering to? I think it was some more than just doing good works.