Graven images, Worship, Commandments

Originally posted by FMF
You are speaking on behalf of members of my family and my Catholic community here in Indonesia are you? On what basis do you do that?

Because, really, if they disagree, then they are not Catholic. If they have an authentic claim to communion with the Catholic Church, then they do not worship a statue of Mary.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Because, really, if they disagree, then they are not Catholic.

I'll mention this to them. I'll tell them that they are not really Catholics.

Originally posted by FMF
I'll mention this to them. I'll tell them that they are not really Catholics.

That is not what I said. What I said is that Catholics do not worship Mary. The obvious implication is that you have simply misinterpreted your parents' devotion to Mary, not that your parents are not Catholic. The fault is simply in your imprecise terminology. What you consider worship, Catholics would regard as a form of dulia. I too have knelt before a statue of Mary and asked her to pray on my behalf. I have lit candles underneath an icon of her. I have kissed the cross. At no point, however, have I worshiped Mary nor committed, as Catholics understand it, an act of idolatry.

Originally posted by FMF
So it is permissable to view Jesus, at the moment one kisses the plastic feet, as NOT God?

No. As Catholics understand, Jesus is God. Consequently Jesus is worthy of the highest form of worship. This is also why we venerate the cross with such devotion. We do not, however, worship the cross. We venerate the cross as an act of worship to Jesus.

Originally posted by Conrau K
The obvious implication is that you have simply misinterpreted your parents' devotion to Mary, not that your parents are not Catholic.

Is it really? But it hangs on that "obvious implication" then, does it? If you have - say - underestimated my intellect and my familiarity with the culture that I am living in, then they are not real Catholics? Their legitimacy all rides on your assumption about my ignorance? Interesting.

Originally posted by Conrau K
No. As Catholics understand, Jesus is God. Consequently Jesus is worthy of the highest form of worship. This is also why we venerate the cross with such devotion. We do not, however, worship the cross. We venerate the cross as an act of worship to Jesus.

It's the plastic feet of the Jesus doll that they kiss. Perhaps they are not real Catholics? The evidence seems to be mounting.

Originally posted by FMF
It's the plastic feet of the Jesus doll that they kiss. Perhaps they are not real Catholics? The evidence seems to be mounting.

No. I have kissed the cross too. I have knelt before statues of Jesus and kiss the base reverentially. Again, I do not consider this idolatrous. The reverence is ultimately directed to Jesus Christ, not the statue.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Because, really, if they disagree, then they are not Catholic. If they have an authentic claim to communion with the Catholic Church, then they do not worship a statue of Mary.

Catholics never use birth control either, do they?

Originally posted by FMF
Is it really? But it hangs on that "obvious implication" then, does it? If you have - say - underestimated my intellect and my familiarity with the culture that I am living in, then they are not real Catholics? Their legitimacy all rides on your assumption about my ignorance? Interesting.

Well, no. Their legitimacy rests on your ignorance, not of your culture, but of Catholic doctrine. It is quite a Catholic devotion to kneel before a statue of Mary. Catholic doctrine, however, does not understand this as an act of worship. You are simply ignorant of Catholic terminology.

Originally posted by rwingett
Catholics never use birth control either, do they?

Of course a great many do. There is, however, a hierarchy of truths in the Catholic Church. A person might believe in the morality of birth control and still have a legitimate claim to being a Catholic. They would certainly be at odds with Catholicism but certainly not outside it. A person cannot, however, worship Mary, equating Mary with God, and still claim to be Catholic. Likewise, a person cannot deny the existence of God and still be Catholic.

And, furthermore, moral impeccability is not a criterion for a claim to being Catholic. Catholics will acknowledge that their church houses saints and sinners. In fact, it is quite central to Catholic spirituality that sin is a powerful force in the world and consequently regular confession is essential. So whether people practice birth control is not a litmus test for their Catholicism.

Originally posted by Conrau K
I have kissed the cross too.

I'll say it just one more time. It's the feet of the plastic Jesus doll that they kiss. Do you understand what I am saying? I am not talking about "kissing the cross". It is of no relevence how many times you or I have kissed the cross. It is the 'graven image' of Jesus that they kiss. If it were not so, I would not have started this thread.

Originally posted by Conrau K
A person cannot, however, worship Mary, equating Mary with God, and still claim to be Catholic.

Equating Mary with God? I've said no such thing. Isn't there enough in what I HAVE said to analyze without adding stuff? 🙂

Originally posted by Conrau K
No. I have kissed the cross too. I have knelt before statues of Jesus and kiss the base reverentially. Again, I do not consider this idolatrous. The reverence is ultimately directed to Jesus Christ, not the statue.

would you kiss the popes ruby encrusted ring on greeting him? just out of reverence?

Originally posted by FMF
I'll say it just one more time. It's the feet of the plastic Jesus doll that they kiss. Do you understand what I am saying? I am not talking about "kissing the cross". It is of no relevence how many times you or I have kissed the cross. It is the 'graven image' of Jesus that they kiss. If it were not so, I would not have started this thread.

Whether it is the cross or the feet is irrelevant. It is not the gesture but the but the intention which matters. If their act of kissing is truly directed to Jesus Christ, then it would not be considered idolatrous.

Originally posted by FMF
Equating Mary with God? I've said no such thing. Isn't there enough in what I HAVE said to analyze without adding stuff? 🙂

That was a hypothetical example intended to illustrate that some beliefs are more central than others. I did not attribute this claim to you.