Originally posted by Conrau KHumm..Not according to Jesus's words and examples that we are not to kill.
Some have. Catholics believe that there are certain moral justifications for war.
But one finale question that you still have not answered. Again why did Noah, Moses, Jesus, the apostles, or as a matter of fact any of God's people ever use idols in any form of worship that you do? Again....show me ((((( 1 )))) scripture that any of them did.
And don't revert back to the same answer about God telling them to make the ones for the decoration of his temples. They were NEVER used in a way that the Catholics or any other paganistic religion does such as bowing in front of or kissing or praying too. You don't see the differance though do you?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWell, that car would not be a symbol of Jesus Christ, God and saviour, nor would it be a symbol of the redemption of mankind. Your comparison is utterly bizarre.
if you died in a car would you venerate it? perhaps you would have a little model of it made to tie around your neck? bowing down to idols is strictly forbidden whether you choose to venerate it or have some other motive.
Originally posted by galveston75Humm..Not according to Jesus's words and examples that we are not to kill.
Humm..Not according to Jesus's words and examples that we are not to kill.
But one finale question that you still have not answered. Again why did Noah, Moses, Jesus, the apostles, or as a matter of fact any of God's people ever use idols in any form of worship that you do? Again....show me ((((( 1 )))) scripture that any of them did.
And don't rever ...[text shortened]... as bowing in front of or kissing or praying too. You don't see the differance though do you?
I think Jesus would have made an exception is cases of self-defense or defense of the vulnerable. Do you think Jesus would have said of the Holocaust 'Just stand back and wave peaceful placards. Don't involve yourself'?
But one finale question that you still have not answered. Again why did Noah, Moses, Jesus, the apostles, or as a matter of fact any of God's people ever use idols in any form of worship that you do? Again....show me ((((( 1 )))) scripture that any of them did.
Catholics do not have idols.
And don't revert back to the same answer about God telling them to make the ones for the decoration of his temples. They were NEVER used in a way that the Catholics or any other paganistic religion does such as bowing in front of or kissing or praying too. You don't see the differance though do you?
Apparently you cannot see the difference between veneration of the symbol of God, which is ultimately an act of worship to God, and the worship of the golden calf. Again, I think your criticism is hopeless because it lacks any acknowledgment of psychological attitude. How can you call these people idolatrous when they never intended to be idolatrous?
I do not think that the veneration of the cross or a statue of Mary differs significantly from the reverence given to the ark of the covenant. In fact, the ark receives even greater honor:
And Solomon awakened, and perceived that it was a dream: and when he had come to Jerusalem, he stood before the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and offered holocausts, and sacrificed victims of peace offerings, and made a great feast for all his servants.
1Kings 3:15
Originally posted by Conrau Kbizarre? what is bizarre is veneration of an instrument of torture, in this case a wooden cross, that is what is bizarre, when one really thinks about it.
Well, that car would not be a symbol of Jesus Christ, God and saviour, nor would it be a symbol of the redemption of mankind. Your comparison is utterly bizarre.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieBut it was not merely an instrument of torture. As Jesus frequently admonishes his disciples, each Christian must carry his cross. The cross therefore represents the cost of discipleship. The cross was also the instrument of salvation. What was an instrument of torture became for Christians the sign of salvation as Jesus redeemed mankind on the cross. To insist that the cross was merely an instrument of torture is to overlook the new meaning that it acquires in the gospels.
bizarre? what is bizarre is veneration of an instrument of torture, in this case a wooden cross, that is what is bizarre, when one really thinks about it.
Anyway, whether you think the cross to be an appropriate religious symbol is irrelevant. What is under dispute is whether, given that many Christians believe the cross to be the symbol of Jesus Christ and God, it can be idolatrous for them to venerate it. There is no idolatrous intent if they truly believe the cross represents God.
Originally posted by Conrau Kthe practice of the veneration of a piece of wood, of which Isaiah clearly spoke, is ridiculous. whether you wish to portray it as a God, a symbol of your God, having no idolatrous intent or anything else.
But it was not merely an instrument of torture. As Jesus frequently admonishes his disciples, each Christian must carry his cross. The cross therefore represents the cost of discipleship. The cross was also the instrument of salvation. What was an instrument of torture became for Christians the sign of salvation as Jesus redeemed mankind on the cross. To in ...[text shortened]... em to venerate it. There is no idolatrous intent if they truly believe the cross represents God.
Originally posted by Conrau KCatholics do not have idols.
[b]Humm..Not according to Jesus's words and examples that we are not to kill.
I think Jesus would have made an exception is cases of self-defense or defense of the vulnerable. Do you think Jesus would have said of the Holocaust 'Just stand back and wave peaceful placards. Don't involve yourself'?
But one finale question that you still have not ...[text shortened]... tude. How can you call these people idolatrous when they never intended to be idolatrous?
Are you kidding me????
Originally posted by robbie carrobieHey Robbie. Heading out to Portland in the morning..I'll be in touch..
the practice of the veneration of a piece of wood, of which Isaiah clearly spoke, is ridiculous. whether you wish to portray it as a God, a symbol of your God, having no idolatrous intent or anything else.
My two cents worth: I can see Conraus point when he says that a statue may just be there to focus the congregations attention on some aspect of the ideals being preached, (or whatever).
I also see some of Robbies and G75's points where they rightly point out that these things can lead to idolatry.
I see the JW's being inflexible on this point whereas I'm not sure how Conrau views it.
Unfortanetly , I see different denominations touting their own one-size-fits-all approach far too often.
Where is the harm in having a nice statue to focus one's energy to the higher truth being put forward?
Does it matter where people are in their "spiritual journey"? eg. Do beigginers possibly benefit from pretty idol-like statues or pictures to keep their minds on the higher truths being discussed?
Originally posted by karoly aczelThe harm my friend is that the Bible condems them. Always has and always will as it's something God has no tollerance for. This is not my opinion but read the Bible and see for yourself.
My two cents worth: I can see Conraus point when he says that a statue may just be there to focus the congregations attention on some aspect of the ideals being preached, (or whatever).
I also see some of Robbies and G75's points where they rightly point out that these things can lead to idolatry.
I see the JW's being inflexible on this point whereas ty idol-like statues or pictures to keep their minds on the higher truths being discussed?
But if one decides that they want to use an idol which in God's eyes is useless and is something that should not be used in worship to him, then that's their decision.
And if one would really think about praying to a inaniment object such as a piece of stone or wood that can do nothing for you because it itself is nothing...How silly can a human get? Just go buy a can of Silly Putty and make it look like a person and pray to it. How incredably dumb!!!!!
But no where at all is even the posession of an idol much less the use of one in a spiritual sense approved by God in the Bible. That seems to be a point that is being missed here for some reason.
I've asked Conraus many times to show me where it is approved to do so and so far nothing. Just 1 scripture that shows Jesus using or saying to use idols or statues or whatever to pray to.
Originally posted by galveston75Part of the problem is your insistence on the word 'idol' which Conrau K has repeatedly pointed out does not in his opinion (nor most Catholics opinions) describe the statues they use in worship.
I've asked Conraus many times to show me where it is approved to do so and so far nothing. Just 1 scripture that shows Jesus using or saying to use idols or statues or whatever to pray to.
As for symbolism during worship, it is my understanding that the bread and the wine used in mass are symbolic and the instruction came directly from Jesus.
Main Entry: ven·er·ate
Pronunciation: ? This part did not paste correctly
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): ven·er·at·ed; ven·er·at·ing
Etymology: Latin veneratus, past participle of venerari, from vener-, venus love, charm — more at win
Date: circa 1623
1 : to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference
2 : to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion
Can we make a distinction between worship and venerate ?
Seems almost like the argument I had with RC recently about the organization being honored or whatever. Also we can make anything an idol. We all have done it at one time or another.
Manny
Originally posted by galveston75The bible is not my master,friend. Neither is your God.
The harm my friend is that the Bible condems them. Always has and always will as it's something God has no tollerance for. This is not my opinion but read the Bible and see for yourself.
But if one decides that they want to use an idol which in God's eyes is useless and is something that should not be used in worship to him, then that's their decision 1 scripture that shows Jesus using or saying to use idols or statues or whatever to pray to.
If anything could be called my master, its "reality". The conditions into which we were born and cannot escape. But even then, She's a pretty easy mistress.
Silly Putty? Yes! Why not? Get creative. Become an active participant in your own (co-)creation. Where is the harm?
There are so many worse things in this life. I cant believe you would goto such lengths to try to be right.
Who cares?
edit: I actually dont pray or worship or venerate any 'idols'. But I've met some perfectly fine people who do. I cant see the problem, sorry.
Originally posted by galveston75Cute, but you didn't answer my question.
"I know there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell." Blood Sweat and Tears....
"I know one's a fool who says there is no God, but it's pure suicide to think their is no Devil".... Me.
Do you believe in pixies, goblins, unicorns etc etc? And if you don't, why not?
I'm sorry but i can't let this go by, but it's pure suicide to think their is no Devil, it should be there, not their. I've been proof reading my girlfriends Masters dissertation, so i'm in a pinickity mood.