hail obama, obama hitler?????

Originally posted by jaywill
I had a period in my Christian life when I ways intrigued by entertaining preachers. I use to even buy LP records of thier sermons.

EE Cleveland, Henton from Chicago, C.L. Franklin (Aretha Franklin's dad) were all world class elequent preachers with whom TV and movies had a hard time competing.

Eventually, the I realized that I was mostly getting my ...[text shortened]... shment and feeding which I crave. That is my deeper enjoyment, what is [b]real spiritually.[/b]

I agree, being entertained isn't the goal, look at it this way.

Muse: you can look up this word and see it means to think about
something.
Amuse: you can look this up and see it means to to divert the
attention of so as to deceive.

I think getting the truth is the bottom line, while being enterained and
dismissing sin as nothing because you have get out of Hell free card
isn't following scripture, truth, or Jesus Christ, instead it is following
some guy who cares more about feeling good and having those that
follow him feel good to as they sin their way into the presence of God.
Kelly

Originally posted by josephw
[b]..."he is enlightening me to all that goes on in those American churches,..."

I don't think so. Kirksey is only showing you what goes on in his church.

In my opinion, 90% of what goes on in church "buildings" in this country and in the rest of the world on Sunday morning is off the mark.

Most of them barely know and preach the gospel. Most of ...[text shortened]... size of the congregation.

The churches where you'll hear the truth are few and small.[/b]

But of course *your* preacher preaches the absolute truth while *their* preacher is an antichrist. Amazing. I should have listened to you all along.

Originally posted by josephw
...

As far as training is concerned, whatever it takes is ok with me, and I know some educated people that are indeed wise, but I also know folks that can barely read that demonstrate great wisdom.

...

So I can infer that you are not theologically trained nor sociologically/culturally trained, in an established learning institution? Isn't your position more than a little convenient, given that lack of training and understanding of the Bible, the people, and the culture of which it speaks? That is, it's ok to not be trained educationally, because you aren't? Gosh, what if we allowed that for doctors, pilots, architects, etc.? Why would an untrained surgeon be the one you want operating on you? Why would an untrained preacher be the one you want teaching you about the Bible and preaching the word of God? How exactly does that work?

Originally posted by Badwater
So I can infer that you are not theologically trained nor sociologically/culturally trained, in an established learning institution? Isn't your position more than a little convenient, given that lack of training and understanding of the Bible, the people, and the culture of which it speaks? That is, it's ok to not be trained educationally, because you aren' ...[text shortened]... want teaching you about the Bible and preaching the word of God? How exactly does that work?

"Why would an untrained preacher be the one you want teaching you about the Bible and preaching the word of God? How exactly does that work?"

It is the Holy Spirit using the word of God that teaches us what we need to know about the things of God and the Christian way of life.

As I said, it's ok with me that an individual be trained "institutionally", but that is not a substitute for what can be learned from the Bible aided by the Holy Spirit.

Why do you feel that social/cultural training is so important?
In my opinion, the word of God, the Bible, and what it teaches, transcends all bounderies, cultural and social, so that the student can learn and understand what it is God would have us to know conserning all things about life and living.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"Why would an untrained preacher be the one you want teaching you about the Bible and preaching the word of God? How exactly does that work?"

It is the Holy Spirit using the word of God that teaches us what we need to know about the things of God and the Christian way of life.

As I said, it's ok with me that an individual be trained "institution ...[text shortened]... nderstand what it is God would have us to know conserning all things about life and living.[/b]

Agreed.

In the secular world it is important that the expert has a Phd. In the service of God the most important credential is a AoG - - "Approved of God."

Originally posted by josephw
...

Why do you feel that social/cultural training is so important?
....

It is important because the Bible was not written for you in English. It was written for a people and culture of thousands of years ago, in Hebrew and Greek (and Coptic, but that's a bit of a digression). In order to fully understand what is written one must understand the people that it was written for in the context of their existence.

It is not enough to say to yourself that you have the Spirit of God and that is enough. You had that, or didn't have it, without the Bible. The only way to understand the complexity of what the Bible is saying and demands is to understand it fully, exegetically. It is not a stotic, immobile work; it is fluid and changes as interpretations of it change. It changes as you and I change. The depth of what you ever get out of it is always proportional to the depth of your understanding of it. It is not enough to merely read it and think you know it.

Resistance to academia has been a cornerstone of American Chistianity for well over 200 years. I am always surprised at the resistance that continues today and is so prevalent at the grassroots level. I would think that a subject that has such profound meaning for so many would be a subject of academic study by the same, and so often that's not the case.

Usually what I observe is that 'faith' is the excuse used to not examine and re-examine one's own beliefs and traditions under the harsh light of scrutiny. Most plenerists, fundamentalists, and the orthodoxy quite often (not always, but mostly) are content to not have their boat rocked, their beliefs swayed, their held traditions questioned. The great irony is that they call themselves Christian.

Bizaare...

What's his problem with Obama?

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"Why would an untrained preacher be the one you want teaching you about the Bible and preaching the word of God? How exactly does that work?"

It is the Holy Spirit using the word of God that teaches us what we need to know about the things of God and the Christian way of life.

As I said, it's ok with me that an individual be trained "institution ...[text shortened]... nderstand what it is God would have us to know conserning all things about life and living.[/b]

If that is so, why are Jews, Muslims, and Christians killing one another as we speak, in the name of the same god, since all three venerate Abraham, so they must all be thinking they worship the same god. What is your rationalization for that? Are you going to pull the 'free will card'?

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Bizaare...

What's his problem with Obama?

He didn't join HIS church, basically.

Originally posted by Badwater
It is important because the Bible was not written for you in English. It was written for a people and culture of thousands of years ago, in Hebrew and Greek (and Coptic, but that's a bit of a digression). In order to fully understand what is written one must understand the people that it was written for in the context of their existence.

It is not enough their held traditions questioned. The great irony is that they call themselves Christian.

"It is important because the Bible was not written for you in English. It was written for a people and culture of thousands of years ago, in Hebrew and Greek (and Coptic, but that's a bit of a digression). In order to fully understand what is written one must understand the people that it was written for in the context of their existence."

For, or to. It seems to me that you are putting the word of God in a box here. What is written was written to all people of all time and is as relavent today to believers as it was then.
You say that we must understand the people it was written to in order to understand it's meaning. I say that our common ancestry makes us all the same, with the same needs, fears, hopes, and dreams. We are all made by God, and we all have the same need to be in union with Him. The ultimate purpose of God's word is to lead man back to a relationship with God that was once ours, but was lost when sin entered.

"It is not enough to say to yourself that you have the Spirit of God and that is enough. You had that, or didn't have it, without the Bible. The only way to understand the complexity of what the Bible is saying and demands is to understand it fully, exegetically. It is not a stotic, immobile work; it is fluid and changes as interpretations of it change. It changes as you and I change. The depth of what you ever get out of it is always proportional to the depth of your understanding of it. It is not enough to merely read it and think you know it."

As I've said before, I have nothing against an intellectual and scholastic approach in the study of God's word, and I say there is much to be gained by doing so, but the deeper spirtual truths are comprehended only by having been saved and subsequently indwelt with the Holy Spirit.
Please do not think I'm trying to make this into some kind of mystical spiritual thing. Without first being saved by trusting in what Christ did on the cross, on our behalf for the forgiveness of sins, with the "baptism into Christ" by the Holy Spirit, so that we have "the mind of Christ", one can gain all the degrees offered by all the universities in the world, and still not have that union with God that only Christ can give.
My point is, without Christ it is impossible to know God. God does not require one to have PHD's to know Him.

"Resistance to academia has been a cornerstone of American Chistianity for well over 200 years. I am always surprised at the resistance that continues today and is so prevalent at the grassroots level. I would think that a subject that has such profound meaning for so many would be a subject of academic study by the same, and so often that's not the case."

I think this is false. I've never heard of this, and I doubt I know anyone who believes it.
Education is the cornerstone of all achievment. No doubt there are those who don't know it though.

"Usually what I observe is that 'faith' is the excuse used to not examine and re-examine one's own beliefs and traditions under the harsh light of scrutiny. Most plenerists, fundamentalists, and the orthodoxy quite often (not always, but mostly) are content to not have their boat rocked, their beliefs swayed, their held traditions questioned. The great irony is that they call themselves Christian."

This is true in the sense that we are all human. No one is exempt from having this fault. People want to feel safe and secure in their beliefs. I think the trick is to be able to eccept challenges without waivering in one's faith.
There are certain core truths that the true believer will not be shaken from. For example, the death, burrial, and resurrection of Jesus. Without this truth Christianity is void.

Originally posted by kirksey957
The black preachers tend to be more in touch with God and thus more entertaining as I believe God wants us to have some fun. Also, black preachers are notorious for having a "get out of jail free" ticket with their congregations. We tend not to be oppressive with the so-called sexual sins. We believe in a healthy sense of forgiveness.

One I particul ...[text shortened]... d a link for him.

Here you go.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRVnzhbxMSg&feature=related

Are you again pretending to be black, Kirksey ?

Originally posted by sonhouse
If that is so, why are Jews, Muslims, and Christians killing one another as we speak, in the name of the same god, since all three venerate Abraham, so they must all be thinking they worship the same god. What is your rationalization for that? Are you going to pull the 'free will card'?

I almost missed this.

Are all who call themselves Jews, or Muslims, or Christians really what they say they are?

I can think of alot of people who call themselves something or another, but they are not.

As a Christian, I can only speak for myself. I'll have to wait and see what God is going to do about who's guilty or who's not.

Originally posted by sonhouse
He didn't join HIS church, basically.

I guess you did not read the part in which he said he had not been to a church since he was a kid. This seems to be a pattern for you, Sonhouse.

Originally posted by sonhouse
But of course *your* preacher preaches the absolute truth while *their* preacher is an antichrist. Amazing. I should have listened to you all along.

What's with the sarcasm?

From my perspective, I was simply having a discourse with you about what I believe. I wasn't at all trying to say that my "church" has a corner on the market of absolute truth. All I'm saying is, if all of Christaindom was on the same page doctrinally, we would't be having this conversation about who is right or wrong.

It's obvious that error is rampant.

Originally posted by kirksey957
How do you know that they cannot "comprehend the spirit"?

Do you think that everyone in the world has the spirit of God?

Or only those that profess Christ?

Do you think that one can comprehend (know) God without the Spirit of God?