has anybody here actually changed their view?

Originally posted by Blackamp
has anybody here actually changed their view on spiritual matters as a result of rational argument / debate? have any believers become non-believers, or vice versa, or has anyone changed to a new faith / denomination? could such argument / debate change your views, or are you just here to convert others to your own view while resisting convers ...[text shortened]... of them - and they just don't seem to be capable of the work required.

any thoughts?

No..my view has not changed on my beliefs. I have learned some things about other's viewpoints as we all should if we are going to be a part of this. I've gotten caught up in some discussions that I should not have as they seemed to turn in to arguing matches which is not good for anyone. I'm at fault too so I apologize.
But the one thing that I've learned is the amount of views, thoughts and understandings with ones even in the same religion which seems a little off to me. But then so many religions and their ministers are allowed to express their own ideas. That's not always bad on the surface but when it comes down to even their basic beliefs, they don't always agree. But that's their thing and I am not one to judge. Just my viewpoint.

Originally posted by Blackamp
has anybody here actually changed their view on spiritual matters as a result of rational argument / debate? have any believers become non-believers, or vice versa, or has anyone changed to a new faith / denomination? could such argument / debate change your views, or are you just here to convert others to your own view while resisting convers ...[text shortened]... of them - and they just don't seem to be capable of the work required.

any thoughts?

As a result of the exchanges I've had in these fora, I've changed my views on a whole host of topics. I still think theism, of any sort, is wildly implausible, but my views on some ancillary issues have been strengthened and refined. For instance, Conrau K has recently provided a model of religious discourse that I think is elegant and plausible, while doing justice to central tenets of theistic belief. LemonJello has sharpened my thinking on a whole host of issues. Vistesd has provided inspired, contextually informed interpretations of scripture, and consistently models a poetic form of discourse on the divine that avoids the paradoxes that tend to result when speaking on such matters. Lord Shark and I have been working through some interesting philosophical issues, and his philosophical sophistication is a blessing here. It is a mistake, I think, to assume that wholesale conversion or spiritual transformation is the bar for success or progress here.

One area I've learnt very much about is how fundamentalists reason.
I've also changed my views about Jehowas Witnesses. As an organisation, but also about their members.
The more I learn about them the more they surprise me.

Originally posted by Blackamp
has anybody here actually changed their view on spiritual matters as a result of rational argument / debate? have any believers become non-believers, or vice versa, or has anyone changed to a new faith / denomination? could such argument / debate change your views, or are you just here to convert others to your own view while resisting convers ...[text shortened]... of them - and they just don't seem to be capable of the work required.

any thoughts?

Yes I have changed my view on spiritual matters as a result of rational argument / debate. Not as dramatic as you suggest though.

I used to debate from an Agnostic point of view, not outright dismissing beliefs of the theists but rather offering my view why religious belief was unfounded in facts, in some cases contradictory to facts and for sure not a requisite for a good and moral life.
However I came to the realization that my position was only one taken out of courtesy and a wish not to offend people on a point that was central to their lives and happiness.

Today my arguments are the same, but I state directly that I'm an Atheist. It seems to do no one any good to be kind and cushion the bare truth : That we came in to existence by the lucky encounter of two cells and in the end we die and then we're dead. Nothing more, nothing less.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
One area I've learnt very much about is how fundamentalists reason.
I've also changed my views about Jehowas Witnesses. As an organisation, but also about their members.
The more I learn about them the more they surprise me.

You'll have to explain yourself sometime to us....

Originally posted by Scheel
Yes I have changed my view on spiritual matters as a result of rational argument / debate. Not as dramatic as you suggest though.

I used to debate from an Agnostic point of view, not outright dismissing beliefs of the theists but rather offering my view why religious belief was unfounded in facts, in some cases contradictory to facts and for sure not a re ...[text shortened]... encounter of two cells and in the end we die and then we're dead. Nothing more, nothing less.

it takes a greater leap of faith my friend from non living matter to the production of a living cell, than belief in a supernatural agency, but everyone to their own. 🙂

Originally posted by galveston75
You'll have to explain yourself sometime to us....

Oh, there you are... I didn't think you would ever talk to me anymore...

Originally posted by Blackamp
has anybody here actually changed their view on spiritual matters as a result of rational argument / debate? have any believers become non-believers, or vice versa, or has anyone changed to a new faith / denomination? could such argument / debate change your views, or are you just here to convert others to your own view while resisting convers ...[text shortened]... of them - and they just don't seem to be capable of the work required.

any thoughts?

To change ones beliefs is to change the direction of their lives and whether good or for bad, change is frightening and life changing. That is why we gaurd and defend our beliefs to the death. We fear the unknown and are comforted with what we think we know or wish to believe. Therefore, this forum has nothing to do with anything other than to reveal this fact. And so it goes, both sides have valid points yet neither can disprove the other. So it all comes down to what you believe. So what do you believe?

Originally posted by galveston75
You'll have to explain yourself sometime to us....

peasant lady steps forth from the backrop of darkened forest and with a fearful gaze and trembling lips, she laments over her shoulder 'ohhh you dont want to go up there', scurries away back into the forest carrying twigs on her head as the crows cackle on some distant spire!

The question is this for ones that are interested in God and the Bible. Do you stick to the death with your beliefs as the posting above mentioned that some do, or do we take Jesus's advice and become sheeplike and be willing to learn.
From the Insight book:
MEEKNESS
A mildness of temper, without haughtiness or vanity. The mental disposition that enables one to endure injury with patience and without irritation, resentment, or vindictive retaliation. It is a close companion of and seldom found separate from such other virtues as humility, lowliness of mind, and gentleness. (See HUMILITY; MILDNESS.) The Hebrew word translated “meek” (‛a‧naw&#8242😉 comes from the root ‛a‧nah′, which means “afflict, humble, humiliate.”
In the Bible, meekness is emphasized as one’s mental attitude first of all toward God, then toward fellow creatures. For example, it is written: “The meek ones will certainly increase their rejoicing in Jehovah himself.” (Isa 29:19) Meek persons are teachable—Jehovah “will teach the meek ones his way” (Ps 25:9)—and they are willing to endure discipline from the hand of God, though such is grievous at the time. (Heb 12:4-11) Meekness causes persons to wait upon Jehovah to right the wrongs and injuries unjustly suffered, instead of becoming heated up with anger. (Ps 37:8-11) Such persons are not disappointed, for Jehovah’s appointed one, the “twig out of the stump of Jesse,” will give reproof in righteousness “in behalf of the meek ones of the earth.”—Isa 11:1-4.

Originally posted by galveston75
The question is this for ones that are interested in God and the Bible. Do you stick to the death with your beliefs as the posting above mentioned that some do, or do we take Jesus's advice and become sheeplike and be willing to learn.
From the Insight book:
MEEKNESS
A mildness of temper, without ha ...[text shortened]... sse,” will give reproof in righteousness “in behalf of the meek ones of the earth.”—Isa 11:1-4.

Oh, you showed you source for this one. Bravo, I say! No author given, but still...

Anyway, nothing more than fundamentalist propaganda.

Originally posted by galveston75
... or do we take Jesus's advice and become sheeplike and be willing to learn.

Actually, as any farmer knows, it is the goats that learn and the sheep that like to simply go with the crowd.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Actually, as any farmer knows, it is the goats that learn and the sheep that like to simply go with the crowd.

Your viewpoint of that obviously differs from Jesus's....

Originally posted by galveston75
Your viewpoint of that obviously differs from Jesus's....

yes if our friend knew anything about farming he would know that the sheep follow the shepherd whereas the goats are want to do their own thing.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes if our friend knew anything about farming he would know that the sheep follow the shepherd whereas the goats are want to do their own thing.

Don't sheep-dogs round the sheep up?