1. is no semi-colon
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    18 Jun '10 02:34
    has anybody here actually changed their view on spiritual matters as a result of rational argument / debate? have any believers become non-believers, or vice versa, or has anyone changed to a new faith / denomination? could such argument / debate change your views, or are you just here to convert others to your own view while resisting conversion yourself, or do you hope for a 'road to Damascus' experience, or believe that you have already had one?

    i don't have any spiritual kind of belief myself, and don't feel the need for it. i tend to regard personal revelation experiences (not that i have had any) as a possible sign of - well, not mental illness exactly (at least not in every case ) - but at least correlated to physical (i.e. neural) events governed, ultimately, by the same laws of nature that physicists study, and not as the result of supernatural intervention.i acknowledge that they may seem totally convincing and perhaps irresistable "from the inside" (i.e. to the person that has them). i doubt that any kind of rational argument could be so compelling as to shift me from these beliefs. i've heard many of then - perhaps most of them - and they just don't seem to be capable of the work required.

    any thoughts?
  2. Standard memberPalynka
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    18 Jun '10 08:541 edit
    Originally posted by Blackamp
    has anybody here actually changed their view on spiritual matters as a result of rational argument / debate? have any believers become non-believers, or vice versa, or has anyone changed to a new faith / denomination? could such argument / debate change your views, or are you just here to convert others to your own view while resisting convers of them - and they just don't seem to be capable of the work required.

    any thoughts?
    Surely you can think of other reasons to be here. For example, why did you start this thread?
  3. Joined
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    18 Jun '10 09:38
    Originally posted by Blackamp
    has anybody here actually changed their view on spiritual matters as a result of rational argument / debate? have any believers become non-believers, or vice versa, or has anyone changed to a new faith / denomination? could such argument / debate change your views, or are you just here to convert others to your own view while resisting convers ...[text shortened]... of them - and they just don't seem to be capable of the work required.

    any thoughts?
    not totally shift. most people are so entrenched in their beliefs that nothing short of great event would move them.

    however a good debate has merits. it is fun for one thing. properly constructed arguments are good for your daily brain exercise. and in arguing with someone you might pick up new ideas and adjust your own. you experience new patterns of thought, not just your own.
  4. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    18 Jun '10 09:49
    Originally posted by Blackamp

    any thoughts?
    I take 'spirit' in the same sense that Berkeley used it: effectively a synonym for 'mind (in a body)'.

    'Geist', 'esprit' are used similarly without the negative connotations that 'spirit' has acquired in English. So conversations here range from fullblown premillenial dispensationalism a la FreakyKBH to the crisp analyses of BBarr, LemonJello and Lord Shark.

    Thanks to my exposure to the Spirituality Forum, I've been converted, deconstructed, roasted, and abducted. Now I'm posting from a safe haven somewhere in the Pleiades.
  5. Cape Town
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    18 Jun '10 10:29
    Originally posted by Blackamp
    has anybody here actually changed their view on spiritual matters as a result of rational argument / debate?
    I am atheist and likely to remain so. However, I have changed my views on a number of things as a result of this forum, and more often, gained new views that I simply had not thought of before.
    I believe full scale conversions are rare in this forum, but not unheard of.

    Most importantly, I think this forum forces us all to look at our own beliefs a bit harder which should, I hope, leave us with a better understanding of why we believe what we do - which I think is a good thing regardless of your beliefs.

    One of my reasons for being here, is that I am intrigued by theism and its causes. I wonder why people apparently delude themselves to such a degree. So learning about other peoples point of view is important regardless of whether I am able to change those views.
  6. Standard memberKellyJay
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    18 Jun '10 14:22
    Originally posted by Blackamp
    has anybody here actually changed their view on spiritual matters as a result of rational argument / debate? have any believers become non-believers, or vice versa, or has anyone changed to a new faith / denomination? could such argument / debate change your views, or are you just here to convert others to your own view while resisting convers ...[text shortened]... of them - and they just don't seem to be capable of the work required.

    any thoughts?
    Yes
  7. Territories Unknown
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    18 Jun '10 15:26
    Originally posted by Blackamp
    has anybody here actually changed their view on spiritual matters as a result of rational argument / debate? have any believers become non-believers, or vice versa, or has anyone changed to a new faith / denomination? could such argument / debate change your views, or are you just here to convert others to your own view while resisting convers ...[text shortened]... of them - and they just don't seem to be capable of the work required.

    any thoughts?
    The question's been asked more than a few times, and I've been one of those posing the same.

    I consider that we're all changing all the time, in degrees mostly imperceptible. There is the proverb which states 'bad company corrupts good character' and I've yet to see it work the other way, i.e., good character 'righting' the bad company. That being said, all of those who have frequented the SF for any length of time are changed whether they acknowledge it or not--- and I think it all depends upon their individual motivations.

    If a soul comes here looking to do nothing more than prove others wrong, their singular arrogance will slowly erode their confidence in their original position and leave them without moor. If, however, a soul enters here looking with honest inquiry for clarification, their pursuit will be met with success... however, not necessarily what they initially sought to find.

    As I've intimated in the past at various times, my pursuits herein are selfish. This is my closet of doubt, the atheists herein my co-conspirators. I come here with my sacrifice, allowing them to first inspect it and then submit it to the fire of their disbelief. Where I am blind, they can see; where I am weak, they are strong.

    I am humbled by their prowess and have been grateful for their indulgences. Their help has been immeasurable--- if not for spiritual growth, at least for confirmation that my foundation is secure.
  8. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    18 Jun '10 18:56
    Not in Spirituality - no wait, not true.

    The Catholic intellectual - Conrau? He has made me rethink my assumptions about Catholicism.
  9. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    18 Jun '10 22:21
    http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/theistguide.html
  10. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    18 Jun '10 23:59
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    I take 'spirit' in the same sense that Berkeley used it: effectively a synonym for 'mind (in a body)'.

    'Geist', 'esprit' are used similarly without the negative connotations that 'spirit' has acquired in English. So conversations here range from fullblown premillenial dispensationalism a la FreakyKBH to the crisp analyses of BBarr, LemonJello and Lo ...[text shortened]... roasted, and abducted. Now I'm posting from a safe haven somewhere in the Pleiades.
    You stole my lines and my habitat-I'm just a couple of planets over from you😉
  11. Standard memberAgerg
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    19 Jun '10 01:492 edits
    I'm still as much the non-believer now as I ever was, but I have lost what was in my forum-nouveau days a zealous desire to show all theists they are wrong!

    I'm more interested in discussing particular attributes/properties/motivations/etc... assigned to various gods and seeing which are feasible, and which are impossible. I still have little interest in 'holy' texts, more I'm interested in what theists extrapolate from them.
  12. Standard memberbarstudd
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    19 Jun '10 02:401 edit
    Originally posted by Agerg
    I'm still as much the non-believer now as I ever was, but I have lost what was in my forum-nouveau days a zealous desire to show all theists they are wrong!

    I'm more interested in discussing particular attributes/properties/motivations/etc... assigned to various gods and seeing which are feasible, and which are impossible. I still have little interest in 'holy' texts, more I'm interested in what theists extrapolate from them.
    Have's versus havenots.

    What a blessing it is to have God working in your life, opposed to always being unsure, skeptical, doubtful, opposed too, and in darkness to your very purpose in life.

    God looks down upon his creation, upon the sons of men, to see if there are any that are wise, that seek him.
  13. Standard memberbill718
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    19 Jun '10 02:43
    Originally posted by Blackamp
    has anybody here actually changed their view on spiritual matters as a result of rational argument / debate? have any believers become non-believers, or vice versa, or has anyone changed to a new faith / denomination? could such argument / debate change your views, or are you just here to convert others to your own view while resisting convers ...[text shortened]... of them - and they just don't seem to be capable of the work required.

    any thoughts?
    I'd say the short answer is very few. Very few people have actually changed there views
  14. Standard memberua41
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    21 Jun '10 15:27
    Is it really that uncommon for people to change their perspectives?
    I used to have a thick stubborn head with my views and refused any change or even possibility of it.

    Now I just like to be exposed to everyone's way of thinking. You never know what you're going to miss and if you keep yourself grid locked in your own ideals you won't be able to nibble on all the other great things out there.

    I like this from that, and I like that notion regarding this. Every ideal is truth in the sense of its existence and there is a value behind it simply because. To deny any one part of the painting as separate from the rest denies your exposure to truth.

    Someone's got the quote in their profile, can't put it in the exact words, but it's something along the lines how we stumble upon the truth, but unfortunately pick ourselves up and keep going.
  15. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    22 Jun '10 17:242 edits
    Originally posted by Blackamp
    has anybody here actually changed their view on spiritual matters as a result of rational argument / debate? have any believers become non-believers, or vice versa, or has anyone changed to a new faith / denomination? could such argument / debate change your views, or are you just here to convert others to your own view while resisting convers of them - and they just don't seem to be capable of the work required.

    any thoughts?
    I like to see a good debate with a strong representative from each side. It just takes a bit of patience to wait for those rare threads that have it.

    I have changed in the sense that I'm no longer willing to exert post after post of effort just to convince the opponent of my position [or at a minimum, get him to work with me and actually debate a little]. If I see nothing productive happening after the first few posts, I tend to just let the discussion slide. Sometimes a more capable debater takes up my position; I'm usually content to hand it off to them.
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