Originally posted by vistesdSo punishment is acceptable if it is ONLY as a tool for corrective action? What about criminals sent to prison for life? What about the death penalty? Are these really punishments geared toward rehabilitation or are they used as a tool for containment so they have no oppurtunity to cause more harm to society? Also, are they moral in your view?
[b]In this scenario we are assuming that punishing someone is unloving. I would take issue with that statement. Especially in light of it being done in a corrective tone.
I have always admitted corrective action for the well-being of the beloved. Instead of your “especially” I would say “only.”
Originally posted by vistesdBut it seems to me it is relevent in God's domain because his domain is his creation and everything within creation is interconnected. Therefore, if one causes another to suffer does God turn a deaf ear to the one wronged? Is this not a concern for a God of love? No man is an island unto himself.
[[b]Also, we are not simply focusing on the individual, rather, we are also considering the individuals impact on the rest of those within creation. For example, one locks up a criminal so that the criminal cannot do further harm to others within society. Therefore, to allow such a criminal to continue indefinitely their wicked behavior towards innocent people ...[text shortened]...
This is relevant to the human domain; it is not relevant to the domain of God, heaven and hell.
Originally posted by vistesdI am not so sure. I think that perhaps insanity is simply a greater sense of illusion. In fact, I notice that those that delve deeper and deeper into sin grow increasingly "insane".
Hmmm... I think this moves it from insanity to ignorance (or illusion, whether self-deceptive or not; after all, as I think you once pointed out: if we are aware of it, it is no longer self-deception). As a kind of aside, however, let me offer this (which I have posted before):
However, the issue for me is what is at the "heart" of such illusion? The Bible says that God looks at our heart and constantly tests the waters of our heart. For me the whole issue is the condition of ones heart in regards to how we allow such illusion to overtake us. For example, if one wants to kill all Jews then one must adopt a series of illusionary beliefs such as Jews are not really human, rather, they are vermen or infidels etc. One must actually create more illusions to be able to embrace an illusion that they love or desire. In other words, some people prefer illusion over reality. It appears that such people prefer such illusion over the God of reality.
Originally posted by vistesdLet me explain. The Bible says that how will they hear lest someone proclaim the good news so what of those that do not hear the good news that otherwise would have converted? For me it goes to the condition of ones heart to answer such a question and I think this is what God looks at according to scripture. Also, what of those who are unable to make such choices such as those who are children or those who are mentally challenged. It then is an issue of accountability. For example, if one is on trial for a crime one must be first deemed able to stand trial or accountable for their actions. For such situations God will be the judge.
And for those to whom the knowledge is presented, but it just doesn’t (honestly) make sense?[/b]
Originally posted by whodeySo punishment is acceptable if it is ONLY as a tool for corrective action? What about criminals sent to prison for life? What about the death penalty? Are these really punishments geared toward rehabilitation or are they used as a tool for containment so they have no opportunity to cause more harm to society? Also, are they moral in your view?
So punishment is acceptable if it is ONLY as a tool for corrective action? What about criminals sent to prison for life? What about the death penalty? Are these really punishments geared toward rehabilitation or are they used as a tool for containment so they have no oppurtunity to cause more harm to society? Also, are they moral in your view?
Of course punishment must be corrective. Else it only serves the purpose of vengeance by those who were harmed. Death penalty and life sentences are unjust and one day will be banned from society. If you think these punishments are adequate, then you're embracing the right religion. How can someone see death penalty as a just punishment? It can only serve as a dissuasive measure and vengeance, nothing more.
Originally posted by serigadoIf I am in my warm cozy house, and you are going by in a downpour, carrying a gas can, I might open my door and invite you in. Now my house is immaculately clean (in this imaginative allegory), so I would insist that you leave your dirty wet coat and shoes in the mud room and offer you a big towel and maybe some dry socks. Alas, you seem to have some problem with me; you've listened to gossip and think I'm up to no good perhaps. Maybe you're miffed because your car has broken down and mine hasn't. Most likely of all: You have so much pride--the kind that makes any kind of dependence on others repugnant, that you will absolutely refuse to accept my invitation.
Let me make my point.
Someone who does not acknowledge God, is going to Hell (some even say if he's not baptized).
Now we have 2 hypothesis: either redemption can happen in Hell, and the soul can go to Heaven, or... it can't.
1) If redemption can happen in Hell, then whatever we do here in Earth doesn't really matter, because soul's life is just going to ...[text shortened]... , I don't know, but almost positively it's not the one described in your Holy Bible.
Thereby you have 'damned' yourself to whatever comes next, OUTSIDE my home. Makes sense to me.
Originally posted by serigadoBut what of those who are not "correctable"? Is it just to release them back into society? I think not.
[b]So punishment is acceptable if it is ONLY as a tool for corrective action? What about criminals sent to prison for life? What about the death penalty? Are these really punishments geared toward rehabilitation or are they used as a tool for containment so they have no opportunity to cause more harm to society? Also, are they moral in your view?
Of co ...[text shortened]... ty as a just punishment? It can only serve as a dissuasive measure and vengeance, nothing more.[/b]
Originally posted by chinking58Let's make the allegory more apt.
If I am in my warm cozy house, and you are going by in a downpour, carrying a gas can, I might open my door and invite you in. Now my house is immaculately clean (in this imaginative allegory), so I would insist that you leave your dirty wet coat and shoes in the mud room and offer you a big towel and maybe some dry socks. Alas, you seem to have some pr ...[text shortened]... by you have 'damned' yourself to whatever comes next, OUTSIDE my home. Makes sense to me.
The homeowner, after his help is refused, seizes the guest, cuffs him, and locks him up in the basement. He gives the prisoner enough food to keep him alive so he can sit in his own waste, be tormented by flies and rodents, etc. until the prisoner dies of old age.
Now imagine that that blessed relief never comes.
Originally posted by SwissGambitWhere do you get all that?
Let's make the allegory more apt.
The homeowner, after his help is refused, seizes the guest, cuffs him, and locks him up in the basement. He gives the prisoner enough food to keep him alive so he can sit in his own waste, be tormented by flies and rodents, etc. until the prisoner dies of old age.
Now imagine that that blessed relief never comes.
Refusing to join God freely leads naturally to being away from God. To be away from God is...hell.
Originally posted by chinking58Where do you get all that?
Where do you get all that?
Refusing to join God freely leads naturally to being away from God. To be away from God is...hell.
The Bible, and evangelical Christian theology.
Refusing to join God freely leads naturally to being away from God. To be away from God is...hell.
Tell me...how can anyone be 'away' from an omnipresent being?
Originally posted by SwissGambitIt's not 'away', it's separated from God. Chances are you have experienced this type of separation already. Have you ever been at a party with a group of people having a good time but you felt excluded, you can see everyone having a great time but your not. The party is happening, you can see you can here but you can't be apart of it for whatever reason.
Tell me...how can anyone be 'away' from an omnipresent being?
In Hell (if that's where you end up) you will be able to see and hear what's going on in heaven, and you will be able to remember all the times God spoke to you and you refused to hear Him. You will be separated from any relief from yourself.
On the subject of death penalty/life sentences, I have to say this. I work in a State Correctional facility, I have read the crime versions of what some of these people have done. I have to say that working in a prison you will see and hear of some of the most horrid acts of mankind.
Those of you that feel that Life Sentences and Death Sentences are cruel and unusual punishment, I have to ask. What is appropriate punishment for someone who overdoses a 10 year old boy and keeps his dead body underneath his bed for three days and has sex with that 10 year olds dead body for those three days? What about the guy who attempts to have sex with his 2 week old daughter and in the process kills her?
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Originally posted by SourJaxIt's not 'away', it's separated from God.
It's not 'away', it's separated from God. Chances are you have experienced this type of separation already. Have you ever been at a party with a group of people having a good time but you felt excluded, you can see everyone having a great time but your not. The party is happening, you can see you can here but you can't be apart of it for whatever reason.
e guy who attempts to have sex with his 2 week old daughter and in the process kills her?
What do you make of this verse?
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:38-39)(my emphasis)
In Hell (if that's where you end up) you will be able to see and hear what's going on in heaven, and you will be able to remember all the times God spoke to you and you refused to hear Him.
In my Christian days, I waited years for God to speak to me. Never happened. Sorry! [Queue the usual responses: "You weren't a true believer!" or "You didn't know how to listen!"]
On the subject of death penalty/life sentences,[snip]
Yeah, there are some really evil people out there. Yes, they ought to be punished for it. I think any person who continually and callously takes human life ought to be jailed for life.
Imagine that, in the near future, we discover a way to prolong the life of criminals. We can now literally make them serve five life sentences. Perhaps we can even control their minds and inflict fear and pain on par with that they caused their victims, or worse. Would this still constitute 'justice'?
And, for those of you who represent 'hell' as merely 'separation from God', please explain the following verses.
Matthew 18:8
“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.
Matthew 25:41
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving,[a] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Originally posted by SourJaxCan I ask you if you feel that it is appropriate to kill another human being, under any circumstances?
Those of you that feel that Life Sentences and Death Sentences are cruel and unusual punishment, I have to ask. What is appropriate punishment for someone who overdoses a 10 year old boy and keeps his dead body underneath his bed for three days and has sex with that 10 year olds dead body for those three days? What about the guy who attempts to have sex with his 2 week old daughter and in the process kills her?
Originally posted by vistesdIf the dilemma remains, then it is not a question of whether free will condemns serigado (or me) to hell, but whether or not (1) Christ’s sacrifice of free will still allows serigado to be condemned
Vice versa: if there is no free will, there is no eternal, tortuous condemnation.
Is the flame worth the candle? Did Christ not sacrifice his free will exactly in order to eradicate this dilemma? And yet, according to you, who believes in the efficacy of Christ’s sacrifice, the dilemma remains. [The law did not save, but only condemns (Paul)].
If t ...[text shortened]... f free will.
1 Corinthians 15:22 for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
So if a person lives a life of sin without repentance, and wants nothing to do with God (i.e., nothing to do with self-surrender), God should violate that person's free will in order to force him to stay in heaven? Do you not see why God simply cannot do that? Violating another person's right to choose whether they surrender to God or not would be contrary to the whole process of giving and receiving forgiveness - the gift of forgiveness must be freely given and freely received.
Christ is the offering which God has made to all as an invitation to come and receive His forgiveness. Christ Himself posits the proposition as a choice with consequences (implying free will), either one repents and believes or one doesn't; that is, God's forgiveness can either be accepted or rejected (John 3:18). Furthermore, Christ says those who reject God's forgiveness in this life are condemned by their choice already. If we do not have free will, then God has no logical reason to present mankind with a choice -- but He does offer a choice. The sacrifice is there, available for all who desire reconciliation, but not all choose to receive it. Sad, but true.
...and (2) in personal moral terms, whether or not I think my free will (or yours) is worth his (or anyone else’s) eternal condemnation and suffering.
What you or serigado do with your free will I cannot be held responsible for. I enjoy being free and I would not want anyone to take away my freedom; being free is central to who we are. If you choose to forgo self-surrender, that is your responsibility, not mine. Each of us are going to stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ and will have to answer for ourselves, not each other. Yes, my free will is worth another's condemnation, because without my free will I could not offer myself to the Lord the same way He offered Himself to me.
Originally posted by chinking58No. I would leave my dirty wet coat and shoes outside. I would have no trouble with you. It's your home, I follow your rules. If I disagree with your rules, I stay out of your home.
If I am in my warm cozy house, and you are going by in a downpour, carrying a gas can, I might open my door and invite you in. Now my house is immaculately clean (in this imaginative allegory), so I would insist that you leave your dirty wet coat and shoes in the mud room and offer you a big towel and maybe some dry socks. Alas, you seem to have some pr ...[text shortened]... by you have 'damned' yourself to whatever comes next, OUTSIDE my home. Makes sense to me.
I wouldn't, because your rules seem fair to me. Yet, you would always have the right to leave me out of your home, no matter what, and I would respect that.
That makes sense to me.