1 edit
Originally posted by serigadoSo you will behave but not have faith in God? Maybe like Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden? No doubt, nothing ever came of that mess.
But by your point of view, God knows who'll behave in Heaven. So, imagine I didn't have faith in him, but I would behave very well in Heaven. Would I go to Hell?
Originally posted by serigadoImagine this sentence below you provided if one is to assume that God is the source of all goodness as the Bible claims.
Or do you think that all those that didn't have faith in Christ during lifetime can never be good persons in Heaven, and are going to Hell?
"Or do you think that all those that did not have faith in the source of all goodness during their lifetime can never be good persons in heaven, and are going to hell?"
Biblically, all goodness comes from God. All goodness that you are able to give in this present world is a result of God giving you the oppurtunity and/or means with which to give such goodness. Therefore, it is argueable that only God is good.
Also, have you ever wondered what qualifies as "good"? Think about this when considering that God has no needs per sey as where we do. Therefore, we are naturally focused on our own needs as where God is focused on those who need him. As a result, I think we can only learn to be "good" if we are able to disregard our own selfish needs/wants and focus on others as God does. However, this can only happen if we cast away our focus on our own needs/desires. For the Christian this can be done if we cast our cares upon God to meet our needs.
Originally posted by KellyJaySo you believe in the God you want to believe? Or you believe in God because you have evidence? What makes your evidence any best then other religions evidence? If you want to be honest, you must check all other religions. From what I've seen, they can be more convincing then Christianity.
I'm not any more anything than anyone else, if you are looking for
God it does not matter what type of person I am, it only matters what
type of God, God is, He is not limited to or bound to me and my
abilities. He can work inspite of them, which as you can see from
talking to me for so long, that has to be a good thing. 🙂
Kelly
Originally posted by whodeyEven if God existed I would question everything. Taking things for granted and having blind trust is not my type.
So you will behave but not have faith in God? Maybe like Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden? No doubt, nothing ever came of that mess.
God was cruel to Adam and Eve. He created them curious and said to them "don't eat this". But if God is all knowing, he would already know they would eat it. Why did he get mad? If I tell my son "don't eat the chocolate", and leave the chocolate on the table on purpose to see if he will eat it, that's not fair.
If it was so important that men did not eat the fruit, God would have prevented it. Afterall, he's all powerful. Just another thing that doesn't make sense that you are willing to take as true.
Originally posted by whodeySo , you must say that does who are departed from God are necessarily not good. I disagree.
Imagine this sentence below you provided if one is to assume that God is the source of all goodness as the Bible claims.
"Or do you think that all those that did not have faith in the source of all goodness during their lifetime can never be good persons in heaven, and are going to hell?"
Biblically, all goodness comes from God. All goodness that you a ...[text shortened]... ires. For the Christian this can be done if we cast our cares upon God to meet our needs.
And saying God is the source of all Good is very hard to swallow as an argument. You reach false conclusions that don't make sense. Maybe the premise is wrong?
And if I say I can be good without God, then you say I can't really know what Good is? That's a very closed point of view.
Originally posted by serigadoYour point of view or opinion doesn't matter when it comes to the truth. You don't have to believe something to make it true.
So , you must say that does who are departed from God are necessarily not good. I disagree.
And saying God is the source of all Good is very hard to swallow as an argument. You reach false conclusions that don't make sense. Maybe the premise is wrong?
And if I say I can be good without God, then you say I can't really know what Good is? That's a very closed point of view.
Once again, God is perfect you are not, that is what sin is. Hell is not about rehabilitation, because you cannot (in and of yourself) become equal to God. You assume that you can be good without God, meaning that you can somehow equal God's level of perfection. That is an assumption that doesn't make sense, if you can become equal to God through your own workings then how is God worth worshiping.
1. God
1. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
2. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
3. An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
4. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
Originally posted by SourJaxYou don't have to believe something to make it true.
Your point of view or opinion doesn't matter when it comes to the truth. You don't have to believe something to make it true.
Once again, God is perfect you are not, that is what sin is. Hell is not about rehabilitation, because you cannot (in and of yourself) become equal to God. You assume that you can be good without God, meaning that you can somehow e ...[text shortened]... l being; an idol.
4. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
But something must be true for me to believe in it.
Once again, God is perfect you are not, that is what sin is. Hell is not about rehabilitation, because you cannot (in and of yourself) become equal to God.
So sin is about imperfections?
The point I made is exactly Hell not being about rehabilitation. It's only eternal punishment. That doesn't make sense to me.
You assume that you can be good without God, meaning that you can somehow equal God's level of perfection.
How does one thing imply the other? I said I can be good without God, not perfect.
That is an assumption that doesn't make sense, if you can become equal to God through your own workings then how is God worth worshiping.
I neved said that nor anything similiar.
You just made a lot of non-logic arguments based on things I didn't say or imply. I guess with that level of reasoning God fits you like a glove.
1 edit
Originally posted by serigadoI did not grow up in a Christian home; I didn't have family that was
So you believe in the God you want to believe? Or you believe in God because you have evidence? What makes your evidence any best then other religions evidence? If you want to be honest, you must check all other religions. From what I've seen, they can be more convincing then Christianity.
Christian growing up, I did not have friends who were Christian, looking
to find the 'right' religion wasn't even a priority with me growing up.
There was nothing about my life that had God in it, I might have heard
a brief comment here or there about God, but typically if I did it was
in passing, or during special events like a wedding or a funeral. It was
not until I was in the Navy that religion became a topic with me, I had
Mormons sharing with me while I was in the Navy more than anyone else
and I rejected Mormonism. It wasn’t until I got my self into some serious
trouble that I said one of those, “God if you get me out of this…” prayers
and I did get out of it, even miraculously I might add and my dedication
lasted most of one weekend. The only thing that stuck with me was I started
talking to God, years later I got saved and Spirit filled and God has seen
me though many good and bad things in my life. Most people I know stop
looking for something once they find it.
Kelly
Originally posted by serigadoFrom my understanding of your posts (and please correct me if I am wrong). You believe that you should be able to go to Heaven on your own merits. If you can reach Heaven, the dwelling place of God, by your own merits then you feel that you can become as "good" as God. If you believe you can become "good" enough to dwell with God, then you believe that you can become equal to God, you think you can become as God. This was the same concept that tempted Eve to take the fruit of the tree of Knowledge of good and evil.
[b]You don't have to believe something to make it true.
But something must be true for me to believe in it.
Once again, God is perfect you are not, that is what sin is. Hell is not about rehabilitation, because you cannot (in and of yourself) become equal to God.
So sin is about imperfections?
The point I made is exactly Hell not being ab ...[text shortened]... ngs I didn't say or imply. I guess with that level of reasoning God fits you like a glove.[/b]
Yes, sin is about imperfections, God is perfect and I am not, therefore I am sinful. Because God is perfect I cannot commune with him without being made as perfect. In eternity, if I can't commune with God then I must commune somewhere separate from God, that's what Hell is. Hell is not punishment because your there, Hell is punishment because you can't commune with God. If you don't mind being separated from God and everything that He has for you, then you'll have no problem being in Hell. All good things come from God, if you choose to be separated from God then you can't receive anything that is good.
Since you can't become as good as God (rehabilitated) without God's provision, you must except God's way to reconcile you to Him. That way is the blood sacrifice of Jesus the Christ.
Originally posted by SourJaxYou didn't make absolutely any sense. That song has been sung so many times you can't perceive the errors in reasoning.
From my understanding of your posts (and please correct me if I am wrong). You believe that you should be able to go to Heaven on your own merits. If you can reach Heaven, the dwelling place of God, by your own merits then you feel that you can become as "good" as God. If you believe you can become "good" enough to dwell with God, then you believe that you c ...[text shortened]... s way to reconcile you to Him. That way is the blood sacrifice of Jesus the Christ.
You believe that you should be able to go to Heaven on your own merits
1) I don't want to go to Heaven by my own merits.
If you can reach Heaven, the dwelling place of God, by your own merits then you feel that you can become as "good" as God.
Where did you get that?? The first premise is wrong, so this doesn't make sense. But it wouldn't make sense EVEN if the premise were true.
f you believe you can become "good" enough to dwell with God, then you believe that you can become equal to God(/b]
I don't think my notion of "good" and my pursuit to be "good" on my own way makes me deserve Heaven or to be with God
You say I believe I can become equal to God??? Where did you get that?? What a fertile imagination.
Again, you extrapolate what you think to my person, than starting making wrong reasonings, coming from nowhere!
My point is: If I can't commune with God and I'm a good person (by my parameters), I'll be sent to Hell (eternal punishment). Hell is a lot more then "departure from God". And it's a very harsh punishment for someone who has always been honest and tried to do good on her own way.
Say for example I take an exemplary life, doing what Christ's message says, except for believing in God. I believe Christ was nothing but a good man. I was never baptized nor believed any God. Then, I'll be sent to Hell. For me , a loving God could not do that. And eternal Hell is too much of a punishment for my errors.
[b]All good things come from God, if you choose to be separated from God then you can't receive anything that is good.
What a fallacy. Do you really believe everything you say, and think you are reasoning OK?
Originally posted by KellyJaySo, you wanted to find God, and you felt great when you started to believe in him. That's OK.
I did not grow up in a Christian home; I didn't have family that was
Christian growing up, I did not have friends who were Christian, looking
to find the 'right' religion wasn't even a priority with me growing up.
There was nothing about my life that had God in it, I might have heard
a brief comment here or there about God, but typically if I did it was ...[text shortened]... things in my life. Most people I know stop
looking for something once they find it.
Kelly
But be aware that it started from you, not from any exterior impulse. You simply entered a state of mind where you get retributions from your own state of mind. That's only an opinion.
What do you trust more? Your feelings, or what everyone around you tells you and the things you can experience everyday (not in your mind)?
You didn't make absolutely any sense. That song has been sung so many times you can't perceive the errors in reasoning.
You believe that you should be able to go to Heaven on your own merits
1) I don't want to go to Heaven by my own merits.
If you can reach Heaven, the dwelling place of God, by your own merits then you feel that you can become as "good" as God.
Where did you get that?? The first premise is wrong, so this doesn't make sense. But it wouldn't make sense EVEN if the premise were true.
f you believe you can become "good" enough to dwell with God, then you believe that you can become equal to God
I don't think my notion of "good" and my pursuit to be "good" on my own way makes me deserve Heaven or to be with God
You say I believe I can become equal to God??? Where did you get that?? What a fertile imagination.
Again, you extrapolate what you think to my person, than starting making wrong reasonings, coming from nowhere!
My point is: If I can't commune with God and I'm a good person (by my parameters), I'll be sent to Hell (eternal punishment). Hell is a lot more then "departure from God". And it's a very harsh punishment for someone who has always been honest and tried to do good on her own way.
Say for example I take an exemplary life, doing what Christ's message says, except for believing in God. I believe Christ was nothing but a good man. I was never baptized nor believed any God. Then, I'll be sent to Hell. For me , a loving God could not do that. And eternal Hell is too much of a punishment for my errors.
All good things come from God, if you choose to be separated from God then you can't receive anything that is good.
What a fallacy. Do you really believe everything you say, and think you are reasoning OK?
EDIT: The previous post got a little messy, just changed the visuals.
1 edit
Originally posted by serigadoWhat I am saying is that if God be God then our oppurtunity to do "good" things is indirectly linked to God giving us the oppurtunity. Serving our fellow man is a privlidge that we did not give ourselves.
[b]So , you must say that does who are departed from God are necessarily not good. I disagree.
Also consider that even though we may think we are doing good we may, in fact, not be. The phrase, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions", is an example. I sure you have attempted to do "good" in your life but at times it has blown up in your face. I know I have. However, if we are seeking God's will his will can direct us in doing good deeds that are the most bang for the buck, so to speak.
Originally posted by serigadoThe scenerio you provided with the chocolate cake is not comparible to the forbidden fruit in that Adam and Eve were without sin nature. Therefore, there was not the temptation to eat the fruit because they had no desire to eat the fruit until tempted by the serpant.
Even if God existed I would question everything. Taking things for granted and having blind trust is not my type.
God was cruel to Adam and Eve. He created them curious and said to them "don't eat this". But if God is all knowing, he would already know they would eat it. Why did he get mad? If I tell my son "don't eat the chocolate", and leave the chocola ...[text shortened]... erful. Just another thing that doesn't make sense that you are willing to take as true.
No matter the vehicle, if God is a God of love he must give his creation the choice to love him or reject him if he desires a loving relationship to be shared with them. Can you think of an example of a mutually loving relationship where one does not have the choice to love the other back?
Originally posted by whodeyNo. That means I don't love God. From what I read from him, I can't even understand how can he be good and perfect. But that's not the point. The point his, if I love someone and she doesn't love me back, I'm not sending her to eternal punishment.
The scenerio you provided with the chocolate cake is not comparible to the forbidden fruit in that Adam and Eve were without sin nature. Therefore, there was not the temptation to eat the fruit because they had no desire to eat the fruit until tempted by the serpant.
No matter the vehicle, if God is a God of love he must give his creation the choice to lo ...[text shortened]... ple of a mutually loving relationship where one does not have the choice to love the other back?
God does so, how just is this?