Hell + God = Nonsense

Originally posted by KellyJay
God calls us to be His children, He gives the right to be come His
children by the blood of Jesus Christ, the need to do that is because
of our sins. If He just blows off our guilt He is not just, so some type
of payment is required. It also has to be a just payment for the
amount and type of crimes done, there is a place where we can turn
from our way ...[text shortened]... n with all that goes with it, or reject it because we like
things the way we like them.
Kelly

So you are saying I am a criminal in the eyes of God, and the only way to pay for my crimes is through Christ, by having faith. That's strange, but it's OK. What doesn't make sense is having a limited time line to do that (our own lifetime), after which we simply go to eternal punishment for not having followed the right penitence (in the eyes of God).
But God is not exposing is rules clearly, if that point is so important. He only sent a messenger 2k yrs ago, who left a book very badly written, that gives wing to a lot of different interpretations and that's completely incoherent with itself. Such an important thing should be clear to all mankind, and God should make his message clear, if it's so important. Why didn't he? If there's such a huge punishment, everyone should be very aware of it. But the message that arrives today is at least dubious.
I reject God because I never seen any sign of him. Following Occam's reasoning, I go with the simplest explanation and I don't make up things.

Originally posted by serigado
[b]The guy is sick and a menace to society. Until we gets better, he must stay in psychiatric hospital. But the objective is rehabilitation.

Ok, lets take the psychiatric issue off the table because I think it clouds the point I am trying to make. What about Al Capone, assuming he were still alive and is not have "psychiatric issues"? If they are not able to rehabilitate such a person then he stays there until he dies, no? This is all that can be done. All we can do is point out his "sins" and explain to him that he needs to change or be cut off from the "land of the living" so to speak. Hopefully he will respond but if not he rots where he sits.

Originally posted by serigado


It's quite different from the Hell your God proposes, where a good person, just by not having faith in God, is going to eternal damnation.[/b]

So what is a "good" person? Were Adam and Eve "good" people even though they partook of the forbidden fruit? They may have been good in your eyes, however, they introduced sin into the world which opened the door for evil into the human race producing such characters as Al Capone and Charley Manson. God knew perfectly well the implications for their actions even though they were oblivious and may have been "good" people. Have you ever heard the phrase, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"? God sees what is truly good as where we may not. However, if we bypass what he is telling us is bad even though our intentions may be "good" we will simply have to find out the hard way I suppose because we don't see the "big picture" as where God does.

Originally posted by whodey
Ok, lets take the psychiatric issue off the table because I think it clouds the point I am trying to make. What about Al Capone, assuming he were still alive and is not have "psychiatric issues"? If they are not able to rehabilitate such a person then he stays there until he dies, no? This is all that can be done. All we can do is point out his "sins" and ...[text shortened]... d of the living" so to speak. Hopefully he will respond but if not he rots where he sits.

Al Capone would be finish his sentence and get out of jail its end. If he would have a reincidence on crime, we would be put behind bars again.

Originally posted by whodey
So what is a "good" person? Were Adam and Eve "good" people even though they partook of the forbidden fruit? They may have been good in your eyes, however, they introduced sin into the world which opened the door for evil into the human race producing such characters as Al Capone and Charley Manson. God knew perfectly well the implications for their action ...[text shortened]... ut the hard way I suppose because we don't see the "big picture" as where God does.

In resume, you are saying that mankind is just too stupid to make judgments, so let's stick with God's judgment, without reasoning. Because God is perfect, by definition. That's like a child submitting to the parents will and protection. The difference is parents want their children to grow strong and independently, and God wants us to be his ignorant children forever, under his protection.
The more I think about it the more I'm sure religion and God is the path to ignorance.

Originally posted by serigado
So you are saying I am a criminal in the eyes of God, and the only way to pay for my crimes is through Christ, by having faith. That's strange, but it's OK. What doesn't make sense is having a limited time line to do that (our own lifetime), after which we simply go to eternal punishment for not having followed the right penitence (in the eyes of God).
But ...[text shortened]... owing Occam's reasoning, I go with the simplest explanation and I don't make up things.

I reject God because I never seen any sign of him. Following Occam's reasoning, I go with the simplest explanation and I don't make up things.

It will not be because you didn't hear or no one told you, and when
the time comes I'll be willing to bet that when everything is revealed
you were shown, Occam's reasoning notwithstanding.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
[b]I reject God because I never seen any sign of him. Following Occam's reasoning, I go with the simplest explanation and I don't make up things.

It will not be because you didn't hear or no one told you, and when
the time comes I'll be willing to bet that when everything is revealed
you were shown, Occam's reasoning notwithstanding.
Kelly[/b]

I hear dozens of religions, each one with their convincing arguments, advocating reason to their own cause. Why is one better then the others? Yet, they have something in common: incoherence, requiring a leap of reason, abstraction from everyday reality. All have their evidence, and all sound fishy. And every one of them thinks they're right and they're special.
I prefer to be just myself. I'm sure my reasoning isn't incorrect. I have an open mind and no one could convince me otherwise. But I've convinced many of my point of view: all those that were open minded.

Originally posted by serigado
I hear dozens of religions, each one with their convincing arguments, advocating reason to their own cause. Why is one better then the others? Yet, they have something in common: incoherence, requiring a leap of reason, abstraction from everyday reality. All have their evidence, and all sound fishy. And every one of them thinks they're right and they're spe ...[text shortened]... me otherwise. But I've convinced many of my point of view: all those that were open minded.

The thing about Christianity or Jesus Christ is we are not the special
one, we are the reason for Jesus having to go through what He did.
It is not because we are special, it is because Jesus Christ is.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
The thing about Christianity or Jesus Christ is we are not the special
one, we are the reason for Jesus having to go through what He did.
It is not because we are special, it is because Jesus Christ is.
Kelly

With Special Ones, I didn't meant that. I meant the one's who've been graced by Truth. What makes you any more truthful then other religions? Do you think that if you were born in India, China or Middle East you would be Christian?

Originally posted by serigado
Al Capone would be finish his sentence and get out of jail its end. If he would have a reincidence on crime, we would be put behind bars again.

But you don't know that he would cause trouble again if you let him out would you? In fact, all indications when in prison and his past history that he would continue his murderous activities. However, what if you were God and you knew he would continue his criminal past? Would you let him out again anyway?

Originally posted by serigado
In resume, you are saying that mankind is just too stupid to make judgments, so let's stick with God's judgment, without reasoning. Because God is perfect, by definition. That's like a child submitting to the parents will and protection. The difference is parents want their children to grow strong and independently, and God wants us to be his ignorant child ...[text shortened]... ion.
The more I think about it the more I'm sure religion and God is the path to ignorance.

But what if God is all knowing and all loving? What if, for example, God knows what is better for you than you do and you find this out time and time again? Would you listen eventually?

Where you get the notion that God wants us to be ignorant is beyond me. We are finite beings and as such we are limited in terms of comprehension and knowledge. At some point we need direction. The only difference is that you seem to want to be free of such direction. To not see this is ignorant in itself if not arrogant even if such direction does not come from an all knowing being like God. Perhaps such direction simply comes from someone a little wiser or someone with greater experience or knowledge etc.

Originally posted by whodey
But you don't know that he would cause trouble again if you let him out would you? In fact, all indications when in prison and his past history that he would continue his murderous activities. However, what if you were God and you knew he would continue his criminal past? Would you let him out again anyway?

So you are saying that none of the people that go to Hell would rehabilitate. If one doesn't have faith during lifetime, he won't be able to join God never more. Or Else, God would be sending to eternal damnation some people that can be rehabilitated.
If I knew for sure Capone would kill another guy when he got out, I would keep him in jail, for protection of society. But in practice we humans can't know that, so I would give a second chance to Capone.

But by your point of view, God knows who'll behave in Heaven. So, imagine I didn't have faith in him, but I would behave very well in Heaven. Would I go to Hell?
Or do you think that all those that didn't have faith in Christ during lifetime can never be good persons in Heaven, and are going to Hell?
Either God is unjust or the Bible is incoherent.

Originally posted by serigado
With Special Ones, I didn't meant that. I meant the one's who've been graced by Truth. What makes you any more truthful then other religions? Do you think that if you were born in India, China or Middle East you would be Christian?

Yes, I work for a multi cultural, multi national company and the Bible
studies I attend have people from all around the world, being born
in another country does not limit God grace, mercy, or power. People
and have limitations not God, if it can be done He can do it.
Kelly

Originally posted by serigado
With Special Ones, I didn't meant that. I meant the one's who've been graced by Truth. What makes you any more truthful then other religions? Do you think that if you were born in India, China or Middle East you would be Christian?

I'm not any more anything than anyone else, if you are looking for
God it does not matter what type of person I am, it only matters what
type of God, God is, He is not limited to or bound to me and my
abilities. He can work inspite of them, which as you can see from
talking to me for so long, that has to be a good thing. 🙂
Kelly

Originally posted by serigado

If I knew for sure Capone would kill another guy when he got out, I would keep him in jail, for protection of society. But in practice we humans can't know that, so I would give a second chance to Capone.

And so perhaps it is with us as well? It is my belief that God is seeking to end the rebellion of sin thus ending pain and suffering caused by such sin. This can only be done if those pardoned for their sins wish to be free from their sins. 😉