Spirituality
11 Sep 05
11 Sep 05
Originally posted by AThousandYoungThose are the two possibilities after death, yes.
Many Christians claim that Hell is a state of separation from God, and Heaven is a state of being with God. These are the only two possibilities from what I understand, with the one being horrific torment and the other bliss. If so, what state am I in here on Earth? I suffer neither horrific torment nor constant bliss. Am I with God? Am I separated ...[text shortened]... ther experience much much worse or much better after death for the same choices I am making now?
This life is somewhere in between. At birth, we are separated from God by original sin. Over the course of life, we are reunited with God through baptism (of water, desire or blood). Each of our actions can make that communion more or less perfect (the latter would happen through venial sin) unless we commit an act of mortal sin - in which case we are separated again.
Oh, and both the 'torment' of Hell and 'bliss' of Heaven are said in an analogical sense; they are both similar and dissimilar to the kind of torment and bliss we experience on Earth (both in quality and magnitude).
11 Sep 05
Originally posted by chinking58This is the only reasonable response in this thread.
I think your lifetime here is the opportunity to declare yourself. Are you a person who would choose to be with your creator? Or a person who would rather reject your creator? What other possibilities could there be? You are free to choose, and are given the understanding necessary to make an informed choice.
The horrific torment of hell, by the wa ...[text shortened]... r without him, but you can be with him as soon as you simply accept his offer of reconciliation.
Are you a person who would choose to be with your creator? Or a person who would rather reject your creator? What other possibilities could there be?
To be a person who is actually ignorant of the existence of this creator and so feels there is no choice to be made.
You are free to choose, and are given the understanding necessary to make an informed choice.
I disagree, but that's not really relevant to the topic.
Your story was well written and has me thinking. In the analogy, the son who left and didn't come back is experiencing the same things he would if the month was up. Same financial difficulties, same lack of the estate, etc. The only possible difference is that he has some kind of comfort knowing his Dad is giving him a chance to come back. However the Dad clearly isn't infinitely loving since once the month is up he writes off the son forever. Anyway, the son has the chance to have a happy life without his father; maybe happier than with.
I'd interpret this situation as that the son is not "with" his father, but has a limited time opportunity to change his mind. After the month is up, the son's experience will not get worse unless he's immature and needs Daddy to pay attention to him. In any case, the son is fully aware of the situation, while someone like me is not fully aware of the reality of the Christian paradigm, assuming it is correct.
11 Sep 05
Originally posted by lucifershammerSorry, you posted this as I was writing my post. This is also a reasonable response.
Those are the two possibilities after death, yes.
This life is somewhere in between. At birth, we are separated from God by original sin. Over the course of life, we are reunited with God through baptism (of water, desire or blood). Each of our actions can make that communion more or less perfect (the latter would happen through venial sin) unless ...[text shortened]... similar to the kind of torment and bliss we experience on Earth (both in quality and magnitude).
How come those are the two possibilities after death? How come the consequences of my choices change?
11 Sep 05
2 edits
Originally posted by AThousandYoungAre you a person who would choose to be with your creator? Or a person who would rather reject your creator? What other possibilities could there be?
This is the only reasonable response in this thread.
[b]Are you a person who would choose to be with your creator? Or a person who would rather reject your creator? What other possibilities could there be?
To be a person who is actually ignorant of the existence of this creator and so feels there is no choice to be made.
You are free ...[text shortened]... one like me is not fully aware of the reality of the Christian paradigm, assuming it is correct.
To be a person who is actually ignorant of the existence of this creator and so feels there is no choice to be made.
chinking:
I'm thinking that the choice to accept or reject the creator can be perfectly discerned by God. We may kneel and consciously humble ourselves before Him, or we may 'ignorantly' live a life that is in line with His nature by repeatedly making such choices. (To be selfless, forgiving, generous etc) On the other hand, one may shake his fist at heaven and call God a monster, or he may sneakily put himself ahead of all others while trying to emulate a form of godliness. Oftentimes society is fooled by such a person, and sometimes a person fools himself into thinking he is 'good', but God is never fooled and always knows who is 'for Him'.
You are free to choose, and are given the understanding necessary to make an informed choice.
I disagree, but that's not really relevant to the topic.
Your story was well written and has me thinking. In the analogy, the son who left and didn't come back is experiencing the same things he would if the month was up.
chinking:
Analogies always fail at some point. I guess the difference is that in the real world, the end of the month is the end of the world. If this life is just the foyer of decision clarification, then there will come a time when it will not be needed in that vein anymore. (The Bible says there will be a new heaven and earth; I think that new place will be an annex to heaven, as it were. A world in the order of the original creation perhaps; perfect and unspoiled.) But no, once the 'month is up' the window of His grace is closed and all outside of His presence will quickly degrade into hellishness.
Same financial difficulties, same lack of the estate, etc. The only possible difference is that he has some kind of comfort knowing his Dad is giving him a chance to come back.
chinking:
Actually, once the month is up, it is the knowing that Dad would have welcomed me back but I said no, that makes my little slum apartment far worse than it ever was. And now the commerce that had been flowing from the high estate on the hill has stopped, and all the benefits of its proximity have ceased,
However the Dad clearly isn't infinitely loving since once the month is up he writes off the son forever. Anyway, the son has the chance to have a happy life without his father; maybe happier than with.
chinking:
If loving means never setting a deadline (rule, guideline, consequence, truth), then that would mean there can be nostandard, no good and bad, no better or best. If I tell my son to clean his room, but anytime he wants, up to forever and ever, then I am telling him that there is no reason to clean his room. But there is actually a benefit, so a time constraint is certainly allowed for in the loving instruction. Removing God's right to set a time limit on His invitation is equivalent to removing God.
I'd interpret this situation as that the son is not "with" his father, but has a limited time opportunity to change his mind. After the month is up, the son's experience will not get worse unless he's immature and needs Daddy to pay attention to him. In any case, the son is fully aware of the situation, while someone like me is not fully aware of the reality of the Christian paradigm, assuming it is correct.
chinking:
As I said above, being 'fully aware' is not really necessary. The Bible says, for example, that 'the mouth speaks what the heart is full of'. (I think of this verse whenever I hear some guy using the 's' word twice in every sentence!) In other words, you are what you are; and of course, you are the sum of your choices. The being made aware, as should happen in a country with freedom of religion, brings about the benefit of recognizing the underpinning importance and relevance of the choices we make; whether to affirm, or to encourage repentance, but it is not required to reveal where we stand in relation to our creator.
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12 Sep 05
Originally posted by telerionAllright, just for you I'll try to explain what I meant. Grammar, grammer, so what's the difference?..I think you know what I meant.
First, it's grammar not "grammer." I am not talking about "a thing which 'grams.'"
Now let's examine your post.
This Christian believes that Hell is eternal separation from God, horrific torment?,maybe, don't know...but it is not forever....
The state you are in now? ...it determines what state you end up in.
[b]T ...[text shortened]... ur case, however, bad writing makes your posts incomprehensible; and, besides, you asked for it.
#1. The statement posed by ATY, concerning "horrific torment"...
There is torment, but only for a little while. I believe that if someone is thrown into a "Lake of Fire", the person will suffer torment and burn up. That is what I meant by, "not forever". The individual would die and turn to ash, and cease to exist.
#2. To be "born once and die twice" means an unbeliever is born into this world once then dies. Then he will be resurrected to judgement, and be thrown into the Lake of Fire to die again.
To be born twice and die once is easy. A Christian is born the first time as a "Natural Man"as all people do(bible definition in quotes). Then when he believes on Jesus Christ, he is "born again"(spiritually, thus twice). Then he may die, and I say may, because if Jesus returns for His Church before the Christian dies, he will simply be "changed"(another bible word).
I hope this explains it. How was the grammar Teach?...I hope I at least get a C.......😉
12 Sep 05
Originally posted by checkbaiterThank you. That was much clearer.
Allright, just for you I'll try to explain what I meant. Grammar, grammer, so what's the difference?..I think you know what I meant.
#1. The statement posed by ATY, concerning "horrific torment"...
There is torment, but only for a little while. I believe that if someone is thrown into a "Lake of Fire", the person will suffer torment and burn u ...[text shortened]... rd).
I hope this explains it. How was the grammar Teach?...I hope I at least get a C.......😉
I even found your bit about Hell fairly original. I know some believe that the lost will suffer in torment eternally. Others say that those in Hell will eventually be given another chance (God says, "So you don't have a body anymore. Big deal. I've wanted to share my love with you since before creation. I'm not gonna let a silly little thing like death stop me.) and so all will worship him. Others do not believe in Hell at all.
I think your spin that people suffer only for a short instant and then cease to exist is mildly interesting. I guess you don't need quite as much revenge fantasy as say Fred Phelps. I wonder what bits of the Bible you string together to support it.
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12 Sep 05
Originally posted by telerionThe bible verses that support this are easy..
Thank you. That was much clearer.
I even found your bit about Hell fairly original. I know some believe that the lost will suffer in torment eternally. Others say that those in Hell will eventually be given another chance (God says, "So you don't have a body anymore. Big deal. I've wanted to share my love with you since before creation. I'm no ...[text shortened]... fantasy as say Fred Phelps. I wonder what bits of the Bible you string together to support it.
I Jn 5:12
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
(NKJ)
It would seem that eternal life is a prerequisite to eternal torment.
John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
(NKJ)
Those that believe do not perish as opposed to those that don't.
12 Sep 05
Originally posted by checkbaiterOf course those who disagree with you would say that you don't know the Bible so well as you think and have read it out of context. "Life" means spiritual life. Hell means spiritual death. You can exist and not be "alive."
The bible verses that support this are easy..
I Jn 5:12
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
(NKJ)
It would seem that eternal life is a prerequisite to eternal torment.
John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not peri ...[text shortened]... ve everlasting life.
(NKJ)
Those that believe do not perish as opposed to those that don't.
Of course, we can sit make stuff up all day. The whole things a crap shoot.
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12 Sep 05
Originally posted by telerionNo, not really. If the bible truly is the Word of God and God is perfect, then His Word also has to be perfect. It cannot contradict itself.
Of course those who disagree with you would say that you don't know the Bible so well as you think and have read it out of context. "Life" means spiritual life. Hell means spiritual death. You can exist and not be "alive."
Of course, we can sit make stuff up all day. The whole things a crap shoot.
To exist and not be alive is beyond my comprehension. The bible is basically simple. People make it complex.
Every major Christian denomination that I am aware of, contradict the bible in some way. I am not saying I have all the answers either. But this much I know. If it contradicts it is not God's Word. After 30 years of study, I have learned a few things. Yes, even a dummy like me learns in time.
12 Sep 05
Originally posted by checkbaiterThe Bible most certainly does contradict itself at points. What do you do with these contradictions?
No, not really. If the bible truly is the Word of God and God is perfect, then His Word also has to be perfect. It cannot contradict itself.
To exist and not be alive is beyond my comprehension. The bible is basically simple. People make it complex.
Every major Christian denomination that I am aware of, contradict the bible in some way. I am not sayin ...[text shortened]... After 30 years of study, I have learned a few things. Yes, even a dummy like me learns in time.