Originally posted by scottishinnz The rules which apply to what you are able to do do not apply to God by very definition. An omniscient God, for example, would be quite unable to "ignore" something - because that would imply he has imperfect knowledge of which, which would contradict omniscience.
Nothing cannot ignore things of which iit has no knowledge; I may be ignorant of something, but to ignore it presupposes that I already have some conscious knowledge of it. If God ignored the holocaust, he must have known about it; otherwise, he would not know what he is ignoring - which is a misuse of the word "ignore".
Originally posted by stoker I DO i do. tell me death comes to us. so the method of death, is it so revalent. the first WW SAW MANY die, and thier bodys eaten by rats, on both sides, is that more or less horrific. but i fear him who can harm me after death, more than man who once im dead can not harm me, whatever they do to the body.
so if you had the power to save one life, would you just watch them die?
Originally posted by Conrau K Nothing cannot ignore things of which iit has no knowledge; I may be ignorant of something, but to ignore it presupposes that I already have some conscious knowledge of it. If God ignored the holocaust, he must have known about it; otherwise, he would not know what he is ignoring - which is a misuse of the word "ignore".
Ah, so this omnibenevolent God simply ignored the abhorrent murder of 6 million people? That's SOOOOO much better.
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Originally posted by scottishinnz Ah, so this omnibenevolent God simply ignored the abhorrent murder of 6 million people? That's SOOOOO much better.
I personally see no reason why God, being omniscient and omnipotent, should not have prevented Hitler from killing all those people. However, I'm not God. I'm sure he's got a perfectly good reason for doing what he did. There's a verse, I think it's from Isaiah, that says something like "You cannot hope to comprehend me, Says the Lord. My ways are so much higher than your ways." The problem with trying to psychoanalyze a creator God is that our brains are not the right tool for it - it's like trying over and over to fit a hexagonal peg into a pinhole.
I AM on topic. The topic is, as far as I can see, "did God mandate Hitler's actions?". The only answer for an omniscient, omnipotent God must logically be "yes". Either your God didn't know (impossible), didn't care (possible) or didn't have the power to stop the Nazis (impossible). Simple deduction does the rest.
The God of the NT is quite as much a monster as the God of the OT, if this is true.
Originally posted by Frank33 I personally see no reason why God, being omniscient and omnipotent, should not have prevented Hitler from killing all those people. However, I'm not God. I'm sure he's got a perfectly good reason for doing what he did. There's a verse, I think it's from Isaiah, that says something like "You cannot hope to comprehend me, Says the Lord. My ways are so much hi ...[text shortened]... trying over and over to fit a hexagonal peg into a pinhole.
Originally posted by scottishinnz I AM on topic. The topic is, as far as I can see, "did God mandate Hitler's actions?". The only answer for an omniscient, omnipotent God must logically be "yes". Either your God didn't know (impossible), didn't care (possible) or didn't have the power to stop the Nazis (impossible). Simple deduction does the rest.
The God of the NT is quite as much a monster as the God of the OT, if this is true.
It's not true.
Statistically speaking, Hitler wasn't the worst tyrant the wold has ever seen.
If one looks at the larger picture one could rationalise that God must be a monster for allowing, and that's the operative word here, the mayhem that exists in this world to continue. But that is not the case.
The world is a stage and we're all actors playing our part. It all boils down to which side of the battle line one stands on. It won't be like this forever. As it says in the Bible;
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
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Originally posted by scottishinnz I AM on topic. The topic is, as far as I can see, "did God mandate Hitler's actions?". The only answer for an omniscient, omnipotent God must logically be "yes". Either your God didn't know (impossible), didn't care (possible) or didn't have the power to stop the Nazis (impossible). Simple deduction does the rest.
The God of the NT is quite as much a monster as the God of the OT, if this is true.
How is that logical at all? You claim that God must have mandated that Hitler's actions, then you identify a counterexample in which God would not have mandated Hitler's actions (i.e. if he did not care). You invalidate your own deduction.
Originally posted by Conrau K How is that logical at all? You claim that God must have mandated that Hitler's actions, then you identify a counterexample in which God would not have mandated Hitler's actions (i.e. if he did not care). You invalidate your own deduction.
Your God-logic seems to presuppose that God is a fallible being. My logic presupposes that God is an infallible being. God has all the power and knowledge in the universe - if he knows and does nothing about it, he validates it, by virtue of it being his creation.
Statistically speaking, Hitler wasn't the worst tyrant the wold has ever seen.
If one looks at the larger picture one could rationalise that God must be a monster for allowing, and that's the operative word here, the mayhem that exists in this world to continue. But that is not the case.
The world is a stage and we're all actors pla ...[text shortened]... in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
But God is equally responsible for his inaction on Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and pretty much every leader of every country which has mandated war as a solution to its problems.
Originally posted by scottishinnz Sorry, but I fail to see it. According to the properties attributed to God, common sense would rather rule in the opposite direction. How can God be a 3 / 4 omni god and allow it to happen??
its not a matter of "allow". If God steps in everytime someone is about to do some horrible thing, it infringes upon our free will. God didn't kill the Jews, God didn't set up the context in which Jews were killed. We were given, at the time of creation, the tools with which to survive. We were given intellect, reason, emotion, natural resources etc... We were given free will so that we could decide how to use these gifts. Some use them for good, and in the way in which they were intended, and some have chosen (and are still chosing) to abuse these gifts. God isn't making people do bad things, they do that far too easily on their own. I reiterate, it isn't a matter of "allow"
Originally posted by scottishinnz Your God-logic seems to presuppose that God is a fallible being. My logic presupposes that God is an infallible being. God has all the power and knowledge in the universe - if he knows and does nothing about it, he validates it, by virtue of it being his creation.
Originally posted by duecer its not a matter of "allow". If God steps in everytime someone is about to do some horrible thing, it infringes upon our free will. God didn't kill the Jews, God didn't set up the context in which Jews were killed. We were given, at the time of creation, the tools with which to survive. We were given intellect, reason, emotion, natural resources etc... We wer ...[text shortened]... ngs, they do that far too easily on their own. I reiterate, it isn't a matter of "allow"
It is absolutely a matter of allow. There are millions of things an omniscient, future-knowing, all-powerful God could have done which wouldn't have affected free will in the slightest.
He could have seen to it that Mr Herr Hitler's sperm never reached Mrs Herr Hitler's egg, that wouldn't have violated free will. He could have seen to it that Hitler was better at art - no free will violation there since people don't choose to be artistic or not (I can't draw worth a crap, for example). He could have given Hitler a free-heart attack in 1933. People don't have free will to have heart attacks or not, so free will wouldn't have been a problem.
Instead, your God, with all the power in the universe sat on his hands and did nothing. And that makes him just as guilty.
Hitler: Part of God's Plan?
24 May '08 23:511 edit
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