"How Atheists Think"

Originally posted by RJHinds
Yes, you seem to understand it correctly as I see it. In the googlefudge definintion of faith, he seems to be setting up faith to be most likely a false faith. So obviously he would not want to put his trust in it.

Thanks for a readable reply. I find those who quote miles and miles of Scripture hard to reply to. I'd rather have a correspondent who thinks on his feet than an overly erudite one.

Putting trust in a belief comes close enough to "what men live by" (Tolstoi) that I can deal with that as a working delimitation (not "definition" ) of the term "faith" in this universe of discourse. (googlefudges' other contexts notwithstanding, and no prejudice intended against other contexts.)

So, to continue, if belief that the Earth is flat, and acting on that false belief, constituted (or constitutes) false faith, then I begin to see why evolution is relevant to faith--since belief that evolution happened (if it did not), or disbelief in evolution (if it did), and acting on that belief, would constitute (or might constitute) false faith.

If we are still on a wavelength here, then let me ask you a follow-on question:

How old do you reckon the Earth is? About 6000 years, or more like billions of years. I won't quibble about specific dates--I'd just like to get the order of magnitude about right: thousands or billions?

Originally posted by moonbus
"purchased by Christ's substitutionary spiritual death which satisfied the justice and righteousness of God the Father."

Can someone explain to me why a "purchase" through death was required? Why didn't God simply forgive man's sinfulness? It was in His power to do so, to show mercy without retribution or sacrifice, just as any mortal father can forgive his children's faults.

Relevant question. Latter this afternoon following a monthly visit with the phlebotomist and grocery shopping, I'll reply.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Relevant question. Latter this afternoon following a monthly visit with the phlebotomist and grocery shopping, I'll reply.

Thanks. No hurry; I'll be here.

Originally posted by moonbus
Thanks for a readable reply. I find those who quote miles and miles of Scripture hard to reply to. I'd rather have a correspondent who thinks on his feet than an overly erudite one.

Putting trust in a belief comes close enough to "what men live by" (Tolstoi) that I can deal with that as a working delimitation (not "definition" ) of the term "faith" in thi ...[text shortened]... specific dates--I'd just like to get the order of magnitude about right: thousands or billions?

To me, all the reliable evidence seems to point to thousands.

Originally posted by moonbus
"purchased by Christ's substitutionary spiritual death which satisfied the justice and righteousness of God the Father."

Can someone explain to me why a "purchase" through death was required? Why didn't God simply forgive man's sinfulness? It was in His power to do so, to show mercy without retribution or sacrifice, just as any mortal father can forgive his children's faults.

"Can someone explain to me why a "purchase" through death was required?" -moonbus Simplest answer: because the Character of God [His attributes of sovereignty, perfect righteousness, justice, love, eternal life, omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, immutability and veracity] cannot become compromised; His character or essence must be satisfied.

Originally posted by moonbus
Thanks for a readable reply. I find those who quote miles and miles of Scripture hard to reply to. I'd rather have a correspondent who thinks on his feet than an overly erudite one.

Putting trust in a belief comes close enough to "what men live by" (Tolstoi) that I can deal with that as a working delimitation (not "definition" ) of the term "faith" in thi ...[text shortened]... specific dates--I'd just like to get the order of magnitude about right: thousands or billions?

Neither the Bible nor science provides precise data for determining the age of the earth. There's a gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 during which the earth apparently became a wasteland without life for an unknown period of time. Genesis 1: 1-2 The Creation: "1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.... 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters."

Originally posted by moonbus
"if you want to be 'effective' in your faith, then you better have some beliefs you can defend."

For example? The Five Fundamentals? Or: The Pope is infallible?

No, what I'm saying is that you cannot be a part of the fringe and expect people to even listen to you, although history shows that those on the fringe get their devotees, they are most likely the fringe of society in the first place. The fringe is historically not where the most effective "reaping for Christ" is taking place.

Originally posted by moonbus
Thanks for a readable reply. I find those who quote miles and miles of Scripture hard to reply to. I'd rather have a correspondent who thinks on his feet than an overly erudite one.

Putting trust in a belief comes close enough to "what men live by" (Tolstoi) that I can deal with that as a working delimitation (not "definition" ) of the term "faith" in thi ...[text shortened]... specific dates--I'd just like to get the order of magnitude about right: thousands or billions?

Well, tighten your seat belt on this one.

You're never going to get agreement on this one.

There is a subset of Christian thought that says "Faith over all!", regardless of the evidence and a thousand years of scientific progress. IMO, these are the ones who make a mockery of their faith because they cannot imagine God doing things in any way except as outlined in a book written for a much less-educated society. These are the literalists, who make themselves hoarse crying out, "Believe God, and what HE says about it!" This is like reading a science book written for first graders and saying that any science beyond this is heresy. I say the faith these people exhibit is small indeed.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Faith is one of those words which has multiple different meanings.

And none of those meanings is more correct than any other.

Having a faith usually means having a religious belief, with faith being synonymous with religion.

However having faith could mean something like trusting something, or belief without evidence.

And it's perfectly possi ...[text shortened]... ut my intended meaning was that there is no
one singular correct meaning in all circumstances.

There are three basic systems of human perception: 1) Rationalism (determining reality through reason); 2) Empiricism (determining reality through the senses of sight, touch, taste, hearing and smell); 3) Faith (determining reality through confidence in the authority and/or veracity of someone). All of us have relied and continue to rely on all three of these systems of perception in our daily lives. Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast." 3) Faith: "through/by faith" is required.

Originally posted by RJHinds
To me, all the reliable evidence seems to point to thousands.

Which is certainly consistent with the view that evolution did not happen, since a few thousand years is not enough time to account for the present degree of diversity observed in the world, if natural selection is assumed to have been the operative process.

Does it seem odd to you that fossils seem to indicate that creatures once lived on Earth when no man did? No man ever saw a live dinosaur or a sabre-toothed tiger; yet there are fossilized remains of such creatures. I suppose one might account for such things by saying that when God created the Earth (a few thousand years ago, as you say), He also created fossils. The fossils too are thus only a few thousand years old, and they always were only fossils--there never were any live dinosaurs or sabre-toothed tigers. Fossils would therefore be images of fictitious, not remains of once-living, creatures.

Or perhaps you have some other idea how to interpret the evidence fossils seem to present?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"Can someone explain to me why a "purchase" through death was required?" -moonbus Simplest answer: because the Character of God [His attributes of sovereignty, perfect righteousness, justice, love, eternal life, omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, immutability and veracity] cannot become compromised; His character or essence must be satisfied.

But why satisfied through vengeance (lakes of fire and so on)?

If I were all those things--perfectly righteous, just, loving, eternally living, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, immutable and truthful, and I wanted to show it to my creatures--I would do it like this: when it came time for each creature to die, I would gently and kindly whisper unto its soul, "have no fear, all is well." And I would show my infinite magnanimity by being especially kind and gentle to all those who did not believe in me, "there, you see, I forgive even you." Imagine how humbled the Christopher Hitchenses of this world would be when they too got promoted to the next one. That would convince them as nothing in this world (including a sacrificed life) possibly could.

But, I should not be so presumptuous ....


... (as to think I might have persuaded Christopher Hitchens).

Originally posted by Suzianne
Well, tighten your seat belt on this one.

You're never going to get agreement on this one.

There is a subset of Christian thought that says "Faith over all!", regardless of the evidence and a thousand years of scientific progress. IMO, these are the ones who make a mockery of their faith because they cannot imagine God doing things in any way except ...[text shortened]... g that any science beyond this is heresy. I say the faith these people exhibit is small indeed.

Yes, I appreciate that Christianity is a very varied phenomenon, with fringes round the edges of the mainstream. It seems to me that there is ample room for both literal and allegorical interpretations of the tradition. Both ends of the spectrum sometimes paint themselves into awkward corners.

Science and pseudo-science too have fringes (e.g. Erik Vandaniken and his aliens-did-it-for-us fantasies).

So, yes, fasten your seat belts--it's going to be a bumpy ride. I am pleased that several voices are chiming in here, without lambasting each other as imbeciles. After all, anybody who can play chess can't be a complete dweeb.

Good night, y'all, it's bedtime here in Switzerland. I'll log on again tomorrow.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Neither the Bible nor science provides precise data for determining the age of the earth. There's a gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 during which the earth apparently became a wasteland without life for an unknown period of time. Genesis 1: 1-2 The Creation: "1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.... [i]2 The earth was f ...[text shortened]... over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters."

That is called "The Gap Theory." However, there is no evidence for such a theory and it is really, at best, an hypothesis. In fact, all the evidence indicates there is no gap in time there.

Originally posted by moonbus
Which is certainly consistent with the view that evolution did not happen, since a few thousand years is not enough time to account for the present degree of diversity observed in the world, if natural selection is assumed to have been the operative process.

Does it seem odd to you that fossils seem to indicate that creatures once lived on Earth when no m ...[text shortened]... s.

Or perhaps you have some other idea how to interpret the evidence fossils seem to present?

No, God did not create any fossils to confuse us. God told us what he did and in what order, but without great detail. He gave us just enough information to keep us on the right track so we have the enjoyment of discovering the details.

The catastrophic events associated with the worldwide flood of Noah's time accounts for much of the fossil record and the sorting of the layers with the fossils in them.

There is a lot of evidence that indicates that man did see dinosaurs long ago. In recent times before the word "dinosaur" was devised, the common term was "dragon".

Originally posted by moonbus
But why satisfied through vengeance (lakes of fire and so on)?

If I were all those things--perfectly righteous, just, loving, eternally living, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, immutable and truthful, and I wanted to show it to my creatures--I would do it like this: when it came time for each creature to die, I would gently and kindly whisper unto its ...[text shortened]... not be so presumptuous ....


... (as to think I might have persuaded Christopher Hitchens).

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Where did your god come from?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"From Surprised by Joy: The Shape of My Early Life[/b] (1955) Chapter XIV "In this autobiography of his childhood, C. S. Lewis recounts the process of his own conversion as a young professor at Oxford in the 1930s.

XIV Checkmate: You must picture me alone in that room in Magdalen, night after night, feeling, whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. That which I greatly feared had at last come upon me. In the Trinity Term of 1929 I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England. I did not then see what is now the most shining and obvious thing; the Divine humility which will accept a convert even on such terms. The Prodigal Son at least walked home on his own feet. But who can duly adore that Love which will open the high gates to a prodigal who is brought in kicking, struggling, resentful, and darting his eyes in every direction for a chance of escape? The words compelle intrare, compel them to come in, have been so abused by wicked men that we shudder at them; but, properly understood, they plumb the depth of the Divine mercy. The hardness of God is kinder than the softness of men, and His compulsion is our liberation." http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/questionofgod/ownwords/joy.html[/b]

Christ's spiritual death [separation from God the Father] eliminated human sin as the barrier between the human race and reconciliation to God. The only issue is "what do you think of Christ". Accept or reject the grace gift... the choice is yours.