Originally posted by josephw
Don't be coy robbie. It doesn't suit you.

I bet I read the New World Translation before you did. And I've read many other translations as well. And many other books relating to the Bible you've probably never heard of.

I know your theology robbie. I knew it first. Then I found the Truth. Better yet, the Truth found me.

I will prove to you the truth ...[text shortened]... o me! I'm not the ugly American meat eating carnivorous hypocrite sloth you think I am. 😉

well Joseph, it certainly doesn't reflect in your posts, and i am not being unkind to you, merely encouraging you to substantiate your points with biblical quotations, after all Jesus did state,

(John 7:16-18) . . .“What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me.  If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality.  He that speaks of his own originality is seeking his own glory; but he that seeks the glory of him that sent him, this one is true, and there is no unrighteousness in him.

did he not?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
did you read Romans chapter thirteen dear Whodey? what did it say? shall i go and fetch the words for you? OK, back in a moment, ah yes, here we are,

(Romans 13:1-2) . . .Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God ...[text shortened]... gainst the advice of the inspired scriptures have taken a stance against the arrangement of God.

Please state why those in power have bypassed the written law and Constitution. If memory serves, Senator Kennedy tried to step down before he died but at the same time not allow a Republican to take his seat so that they could not stop Obmacare. So do you know what he did? He tried to get the laws changed at the last second soley because he wanted Obamacare passed. Then when he failed to change the law guessed what happened? That's right, the people elected a Republican to nix earmarked ridden Obamacare with Cornhusker kickbacks and Louisianna Purchases to mention a few. Not to mention it is a poorly written bill that focuses more on giving union members perks than fixing the fraud ridden Medicare/Medicaid system. So the Democrats then had to attempt some more letigious gymnastics in order to pass Obamacare once the Republican Scott Brown was elected and stood in the way of Obamacare. They then instituted what is called "Reconciliation" to pass the legislation, which is not a Constitutional process. Of course, now Obamacare is being tried in the courts because the government does not have the Constitutional authority to mandate that people buy anything.

Considering all this, it would appear that the powers that be are the ones in violation of the arranged laws, not I. In fact, I wish I knew how I was violating God's law. Am I violating it because I speak my mind on issues and/or vote against people I don't agree with? In fact, I thought by law I had a right and a moral obligation to do so?

Originally posted by whodey
Please state why those in power have bypassed the written law and Constitution. If memory serves, Senator Kennedy tried to step down before he died but at the same time not allow a Republican to take his seat so that they could not stop Obmacare. So do you know what he did? He tried to get the laws changed at the last second soley because he wanted Obamaca ...[text shortened]... don't agree with? In fact, I thought by law I had a right and a moral obligation to do so?

As a Christian its none of my concern and none of yours either, Paul was writing to the Romans for exactly this reason, the Caesars were incestuous, bloodthirsty, cruel and corrupt yet the Christians were paying taxes to them. What did Paul write? be in subjection to the superior authority, therefore dear Whodey , why have you taken a stand against it? why have you dismissed the inspired words of Paul? Pay Caesar things to Caesar and Gods thing to God, regardless of whether we think that those in power are corrupt, inept, immoral etc etc for failure to do so results in one taking a stance against the arrangement of God! Do you think that i like the idea of my taxes being made available to fund weapons programs? to fund abortion clinics? What they do with the monies is entirely up to them, they will render an account to God, as for you, live peaceably with all men and honour men of all sorts, have respect for the King (in your case the President)

(Romans 13:5-7) . . .There is therefore compelling reason for you people to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of your conscience.  For that is why you are also paying taxes; for they are God’s public servants constantly serving this very purpose.  Render to all their dues, to him who calls for the tax, the tax; to him who calls for the tribute, the tribute; to him who calls for fear, such fear; to him who calls for honor, such honor.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
As a Christian its none of my concern and none of yours either, Paul was writing to the Romans for exactly this reason, the Caesars were incestuous, bloodthirsty, cruel and corrupt yet the Christians were paying taxes to them. What did Paul write? be in subjection to the superior authority, therefore dear Whodey , why have you taken a stand against ...[text shortened]... bute, the tribute; to him who calls for fear, such fear; to him who calls for honor, such honor.

Of course I am paying taxes. I never said that I did not pay taxes. In fact, I am not breaking any laws to my knowledge. I just don't understand why people like yourself don't take LEGAL steps to perhaps making things a little better. In fact, if there is a legal means to help save unborn lives then I'll take it. We are not on earth to lie down and be dictated to Robbie. Of course, I can only speak for myself on that matter.

Of course, just because there are laws does not obligate me to uphold them. If memory serves, Daniel was told by the powers that be that he be forbidden to pray. He then disobeyed that law and was thrown to the lions!! 😲

Do you think this public display of disobedience to the king of Babylon was a sin?

Of coure, the Founding Fathers also come to mind. They felt as if the king of England had abused his powers over them and no longer represented them. They then rebelled and started a nation all their own. No doubt, in the JW book of sinners they must be at the top of the page. Of course, once they started their country then I presume that God wants me to follow the laws therin? The question I have is, if God did not want them forming the US nation in the first place, why then should I follow their laws now?

Originally posted by whodey
Of course I am paying taxes. I never said that I did not pay taxes. In fact, I am not breaking any laws to my knowledge. I just don't understand why people like yourself don't take LEGAL steps to perhaps making things a little better. In fact, if there is a legal means to help save unborn lives then I'll take it. We are not on earth to lie down and be di ...[text shortened]... tion all their own. No doubt, in the JW book of sinners they must be at the top of the page.

ummm dear Whodey the post was not really about paying taxes, but why we pay them regardless of who is in power or what they do with them, never the less, Daniel did not sin because he was asked to do something that contravened Gods law, whereas your political sensibilities have nothing to do with Gods law, unless of course you are willing to state that universal health care is a direct contravention of Gods law! You are to be in subjection to the superior authorities, what is it about Romans chapter thirteen that yet evades you dear Whodey? is it inconvenient because of your political leanings, well, what are you, a Christian or a political agitator? get it sorted and you will free yourself from the delusion of politics and be happier for it! Persons like myself have dedicated huge amounts of our time and resources to helping others and to make things better through a global Bible education program, we are after all Christians , are we not! its what we are supposed to do, is it not?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
ummm dear Whodey the post was not really about paying taxes, but why we pay them regardless of who is in power or what they do with them, never the less, Daniel did not sin because he was asked to do something that contravened Gods law, whereas your political sensibilities have nothing to do with Gods law, unless of course you are willing to state th ...[text shortened]... on program, we are after all Christians , are we not! its what we are supposed to do, is it not?

Where in the Torah are people commanded to pray? What passage was Daniel suppose to follow?

Additionally, if I were to find someone in need I would try to help them. However, if it meant maxing out my debt with the knowledge that I could never pay that money back to help them, is that a moral thing to do? Is that not theft as you steal from your lenders? Conversely, do you think the US government ever has the intention of paying back $13 trillion plus dollars? Right now I think they are trying to inlate the dollar so as to shrink their overall debt. In a way, you could view this as theft as well but I suppose people are brainwashed to believe that the Robin Hood theft and redistribution is a moral thing to do.

Originally posted by whodey
Where in the Torah are people commanded to pray? What passage was Daniel suppose to follow?

Additionally, if I were to find someone in need I would try to help them. However, if it meant maxing out my debt with the knowledge that I could never pay that money back to help them, is that a moral thing to do? Is that not theft as you steal from your lenders ...[text shortened]... are brainwashed to believe that the Robin Hood theft and redistribution is a moral thing to do.

let the government worry about its own national debt, it is a matter for politicians, we are clearly, yes i shall state it again, clearly advised to remain subject to the governmental authorities, for they stand, in their relative position , by God. You can of course ignore this advice, but it in no way negates that the Christian has a different government to which he is a citizen, a heavenly one, a theorcracy and my dear Whodey, no amount of attempts at justifying ones political stance can negate this.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
let the government worry about its own national debt, it is a matter for politicians, we are clearly, yes i shall state it again, clearly advised to remain subject to the governmental authorities, for they stand, in their relative position , by God. You can of course ignore this advice, but it in no way negates that the Christian has a different gov ...[text shortened]... y and my dear Whodey, no amount of attempts at justifying ones political stance can negate this.

Since when are Christians commanded to remain apart from politics? If so, how do you explain Joseph in Egypt? Clearly this is a false teaching of the JW's. I have been accused of opposing a government for whom I have broken no laws against. How does that make any sense? Instead, I have been condemned by you for expressing my opinions and voting for those I think would do a better job. And to top is all off, I have been accused of being nonchristian by opposing Obamacare. The accusation which I tire of hearing is that if I am not for a nanny state I care nothing about those who are in need. Clearly this is a strawman arguement.

Edit: I still await the verse in the Torah commanding Daniel to pray.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
did you read Romans chapter thirteen dear Whodey? what did it say? shall i go and fetch the words for you? OK, back in a moment, ah yes, here we are,

(Romans 13:1-2) . . .Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God ...[text shortened]... gainst the advice of the inspired scriptures have taken a stance against the arrangement of God.

So if I oppose Obama by voting for the other guy I'm breaking God's commandment?

What a stupid mishandling of scripture.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
well Joseph, it certainly doesn't reflect in your posts, and i am not being unkind to you, merely encouraging you to substantiate your points with biblical quotations, after all Jesus did state,

(John 7:16-18) . . .“[b]What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me.  If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the tea ...[text shortened]... of him that sent him, this one is true, and there is no unrighteousness in him.

did he not?[/b]

No He didn't.

I don't recognise the verses because they come from a corrupt translation.

John 7 KJV
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

You pulled these verses out of there context to prove a point, but I have no idea what you're talking about, because these verses have nothing to do with what we were talking about.

But while we're here I like to know who you think the, he, himself, his, and him are in verse 18.

Originally posted by josephw
So if I oppose Obama by voting for the other guy I'm breaking God's commandment?

What a stupid mishandling of scripture.

the only stupid thing is your post, give it up, your insulting my intelligence.

Originally posted by josephw
No He didn't.

I don't recognise the verses because they come from a corrupt translation.

John 7 KJV
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: b ...[text shortened]... hile we're here I like to know who you think the, he, himself, his, and him are in verse 18.

when you read Romans chapter thirteen, get back to me.

Originally posted by whodey
Since when are Christians commanded to remain apart from politics? If so, how do you explain Joseph in Egypt? Clearly this is a false teaching of the JW's. I have been accused of opposing a government for whom I have broken no laws against. How does that make any sense? Instead, I have been condemned by you for expressing my opinions and voting for thos ...[text shortened]... a strawman arguement.

Edit: I still await the verse in the Torah commanding Daniel to pray.

read Romans chapter thirteen and get back to me, you may quote it in whole or in part, ill be waiting.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
As a Christian its none of my concern and none of yours either, Paul was writing to the Romans for exactly this reason, the Caesars were incestuous, bloodthirsty, cruel and corrupt yet the Christians were paying taxes to them. What did Paul write? be in subjection to the superior authority, therefore dear Whodey , why have you taken a stand against ...[text shortened]... bute, the tribute; to him who calls for fear, such fear; to him who calls for honor, such honor.

I agree mostly Robbie.

I belong to the Christian Motorcyclist Association. It is a non-denominational ministry that focuses its effort at biker ministries.

Yesterday someone from the organization decides to send this e-mail:
Hi Folks,
As you can read this e-mail was sent by Rod Parker and I am not trying to use CMA
e-mail list to promote a political agenda but as citizens of the USA, we are coming up
on probably the most important election in our lifetime. This e-mail pertains to the
man that Massachusetts voters sent to Washington as one of our Senators, which in
itself was a statement of what people in this traditionally Liberal state have made,
loud and clear. He is giving voters of Massachusetts the common ability of the
Internet to let him know what you want him to know. I have contacted other Senators
from this state and have received replies of bland and canned content. I don't know
how you intend to vote Tuesday November 2, and not sure there is anything in this
e-mail that will help you make any decisions on that but it is worth reading and
filling out the questionnaire it contains. I do know how I am going to vote Tuesday.
God & Country.

God and Country is code for vote Republican


I didn't give them my e-mail address so they could spam me with their political opinions. I resonded with this:
To quote you "I do know how I am going to vote Tuesday.
God & Country. ", so if I vote differently than you I don't
believe in God? or I am not a patriot? Please do not send me political e-mails. I am a
part of the CMA because I believe in the ministry. I love hearing about the the wonderful
support you all give one another, and how much face time many of you spend witnessing to
non-believers, but politics are a very personal thing, and I don't wish to be included in
your discussion...as I will mostly disagree.

Grace and Peace,
Dave


I replied to all, and a number of people responded, indignant that I would disagree with em. I responded again with this:
So if I vote other than you vote I am not voting God and country? Because that is exactly
what you are saying; and there is no anger on my end, just a request to leave me off your
political e-mail's. Politics and faith do not mix, and as Martin Luther said: "The devil
never stops cooking and brewing these two kingdoms together," (meaning the secular and
religous).Did not Christ tell Pontius Pilate: 'My kingdom is not of this world' (John
18:36)?

Grace and Peace,
Dave


One more e-mail about polotics and I'll cut my patch off my vest and mail it to them...the nerve!

Originally posted by duecer
I agree mostly Robbie.

I belong to the Christian Motorcyclist Association. It is a non-denominational ministry that focuses its effort at biker ministries.

Yesterday someone from the organization decides to send this e-mail:
Hi Folks,
As you can read this e-mail was sent by Rod Parker and I am not trying to use CMA
e-mail list to promote a political ...[text shortened]... il about polotics and I'll cut my patch off my vest and mail it to them...the nerve!

yes Deucer my friend, that is because you know your Bible! i want these guys to explain Romans chapter thirteen, but the dare not do it.