1. Standard membershavixmir
    Guppy poo
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    11 Jul '06 12:11
    I don't know if arrogance is a sin or not, and to be quite honest, I don't give a damn either.
    But Christians seem to me to be quite arrogant.

    Well... not only Christians, let me be quite Frank (or Bob... see if I care) about this, humanity seems to me to be quite arrogant when it comes to religion.

    But, to make my point a little smaller and easier to type I'm going to use Christianity as an example, but it could equally refer to pagan Gods, Jews, Muslims and most other religions to boot.

    Correct me if I'm wrong:

    God is everything. He created everything. He (or She... I ain't gonna judge) knows everything and well, he's (or It... one really can never be too sure) basically quite an important dude when matters of the universe are concerned.

    Yet the Christians think, that in the vastness of space, the building of umpteem suns and umpteem score and ten planets and God only knows how many moons, continents and what-not, that God wants to test their faith.
    How arrogant is that? It's like an ant wondering if I care about her footsteps on my neighbours lawn. Isn't it?

    Why on Earth would the most powerful being to have ever existed, besides Maradona of course, want to build a garden to test humanity's faith?
    Why, considering the amount of animals, insects and bacteria around, does it seem like humans are the only one he tested? Surely it can't be coincidence that it is humans who wrote this down? It's arrogance plain and simple.

    Or God is petty.
    Which is it?
  2. Joined
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    11 Jul '06 12:28
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    I don't know if arrogance is a sin or not, and to be quite honest, I don't give a damn either.
    But Christians seem to me to be quite arrogant.

    Well... not only Christians, let me be quite Frank (or Bob... see if I care) about this, humanity seems to me to be quite arrogant when it comes to religion.

    But, to make my point a little smaller and easi ...[text shortened]... wrote this down? It's arrogance plain and simple.

    Or God is petty.
    Which is it?
    You assume that all religious people are arrogant. Is it arrogant thinking that you know the truth about something? If so, then every one is arrogant. What can be arrogant is the way in which you portray to others what you think the truth about something is. If they were a student of the Bible, they would see that humility is the path one should travel and not arrogance.

    As far as faith goes, I would say that one need not the Garden of Eden to be tested. Lucifer fell and had no fruit to choose from or tempted to partake yet he fell. Faith is simply acknowledging that God is God and he is infinite and all knowing and you are not. There will always be "blind spots" that you will need to depend upon God for being your eyes to see where you cannot. This is the lesson that must be learned by all of his creation. It is the relationship between the infinite and the finite.
  3. Territories Unknown
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    11 Jul '06 13:10
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    I don't know if arrogance is a sin or not, and to be quite honest, I don't give a damn either.
    But Christians seem to me to be quite arrogant.

    Well... not only Christians, let me be quite Frank (or Bob... see if I care) about this, humanity seems to me to be quite arrogant when it comes to religion.

    But, to make my point a little smaller and easi ...[text shortened]... wrote this down? It's arrogance plain and simple.

    Or God is petty.
    Which is it?
    God wants to test their faith.
    Good post, and thanks for taking the time to articulate it in such a cohesive and succinct manner. It's refreshing to see honest doubt from time to time.

    Without the slightest intention of insult, your post is a classic example of a wrong premise resulting in a wrong conclusion. As you pointed out, God is omniscient and, as such, need not wait for the results of the test. Knowing the end from even before the beginning, His knowledge does not increase or develop. Armed with perfect knowledge, He could easily simply assign each person their lot in an eternal state. Who can argue with perfect knowledge, right?

    This crazy little thing called life is not for His benefit to see how we will respond to grace, but rather for our benefit, for us to see how we will respond to grace.

    For the one who rejects the Lord Jesus Christ, Hell is that everyday reminder of conversations like this: all of those opportunities constantly played back in the mind of the rejector.

    For those who accept the gift of grace, life is a limited opportunity to maximize the already-overwhelming bounty which flows from a right relationship with God.
  4. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    11 Jul '06 18:43
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    I don't know if arrogance is a sin or not, and to be quite honest, I don't give a damn either.
    But Christians seem to me to be quite arrogant.

    Well... not only Christians, let me be quite Frank (or Bob... see if I care) about this, humanity seems to me to be quite arrogant when it comes to religion.

    But, to make my point a little smaller and easi ...[text shortened]... wrote this down? It's arrogance plain and simple.

    Or God is petty.
    Which is it?
    The first thing to bear in mind here is that although there are umpteen planets and suns , in all the vastness of space we may well be the only entity that is sentient and can think for itself. This simple littel quality makes us radically different from anything else in the universe.

    The second consideration is that God created us simply to share in his nature. This is more akin to a parent wanting to have a child. He has so much love that he can't contain it. He has to share his life , his love with us. He wanted to create the possibility of sharing the joy of being alive and sentient. He wanted us to know what love is in a real way by making us free , more than just robots. This is a world away from God wanting to entertain himself by creating toys he can 'test' .

    So there you have it. If this makes God petty then so be it. The vastness of the universe is simply a small reflection of the eternal vastness of God. Our sentience and life is a gift from him , but would you prefer God showed us how important we are to him by making the universe smaller or choosing to live amongst us as a man. Unless you didn't notice Jesus was born on Earth not Alpha Centauri.
  5. DonationPawnokeyhole
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    11 Jul '06 19:25
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    I don't know if arrogance is a sin or not, and to be quite honest, I don't give a damn either.
    But Christians seem to me to be quite arrogant.

    Well... not only Christians, let me be quite Frank (or Bob... see if I care) about this, humanity seems to me to be quite arrogant when it comes to religion.

    But, to make my point a little smaller and easi ...[text shortened]... wrote this down? It's arrogance plain and simple.

    Or God is petty.
    Which is it?
    Could the idea that God is interested in us be hopeful rather than merely self-satisfied?
  6. Standard membershavixmir
    Guppy poo
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    12 Jul '06 14:09
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    The first thing to bear in mind here is that although there are umpteen planets and suns , in all the vastness of space we may well be the only entity that is sentient and can think for itself. This simple littel quality makes us radically different from anything else in the universe.

    The second consideration is that God created us simply to share ...[text shortened]... ve amongst us as a man. Unless you didn't notice Jesus was born on Earth not Alpha Centauri.
    How do you know we're the only entity that can think for itself?
    And why does thinking make us better?
    I see dolphins swimming around all day, never having to wipe their bum and doing nothing else but eating and shagging...

    Looks to me like other creatures are WAY more happy, relaxed and evolved.
  7. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    12 Jul '06 15:14
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    How do you know we're the only entity that can think for itself?
    And why does thinking make us better?
    I see dolphins swimming around all day, never having to wipe their bum and doing nothing else but eating and shagging...

    Looks to me like other creatures are WAY more happy, relaxed and evolved.
    We don't know for sure that we are the only entity that can think for itself but the overwhelming evidence is that we are. The thing about thinking that makes us different or unique is that it makes free will possible. A Dolphin just does what Dolphins do , there is no evidence that it thinks to itself "Hey , I'm a Dolphin , I wonder if ...." it just does what nature has programmed it to do. We however are much more quirky and do not have to follow our instincts. We do not just think but also think about the way we think. We are alive and we know we are alive. I agree that this doesn't always make us happier , but it makes us very , very , unique.
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    12 Jul '06 15:35
    i bet god is good at chess, he knows the outcome and every move before you play it.
  9. Standard membertelerion
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    12 Jul '06 16:14
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    I don't know if arrogance is a sin or not, and to be quite honest, I don't give a damn either.
    But Christians seem to me to be quite arrogant.

    Well... not only Christians, let me be quite Frank (or Bob... see if I care) about this, humanity seems to me to be quite arrogant when it comes to religion.

    But, to make my point a little smaller and easi ...[text shortened]... wrote this down? It's arrogance plain and simple.

    Or God is petty.
    Which is it?
    God can be perfectly petty.
  10. Felicific Forest
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    12 Jul '06 16:171 edit
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    I don't know if arrogance is a sin or not, and to be quite honest, I don't give a damn either.
    But Christians seem to me to be quite arrogant.

    Well... not only Christians, let me be quite Frank (or Bob... see if I care) about this, humanity seems to me to be quite arrogant when it comes to religion.

    But, to make my point a little smaller and easi wrote this down? It's arrogance plain and simple.

    Or God is petty.
    Which is it?
    Once again you fail to impress with an over-simplistic evaluation of a very complex situation.

    You might want to look a little deeper into this ........
  11. Standard memberKellyJay
    Walk your Faith
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    12 Jul '06 17:04
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    I don't know if arrogance is a sin or not, and to be quite honest, I don't give a damn either.
    But Christians seem to me to be quite arrogant.

    Well... not only Christians, let me be quite Frank (or Bob... see if I care) about this, humanity seems to me to be quite arrogant when it comes to religion.

    But, to make my point a little smaller and easi ...[text shortened]... wrote this down? It's arrogance plain and simple.

    Or God is petty.
    Which is it?
    Exactly how is God petty in all of this?
    If God is all knowing, is everywhere, and all powerful doesn't that
    mean at every point in the universe he knows all there is to know
    and is able to act as God wills every where? Doesn't seem like that
    is arrogant to me, but simply God being the great I AM.

    The only complaint against God that I have seen that remotely sounds
    reasonable is that people don't think God can allow another to do as
    they will at any time for any reason.
    Kelly
  12. DonationPawnokeyhole
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    12 Jul '06 19:16
    Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
    Could the idea that God is interested in us be hopeful rather than merely self-satisfied?
    Go on, Shav. Answer my question.
  13. Territories Unknown
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    13 Jul '06 05:47
    Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
    Could the idea that God is interested in us be hopeful rather than merely self-satisfied?
    Fantasy either way, yes?
  14. Cosmos
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    13 Jul '06 06:00
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    We don't know for sure that we are the only entity that can think for itself but the overwhelming evidence is that we are. The thing about thinking that makes us different or unique is that it makes free will possible. A Dolphin just does what Dolphins do , there is no evidence that it thinks to itself "Hey , I'm a Dolphin , I wonder if ...." it just d ...[text shortened]... . I agree that this doesn't always make us happier , but it makes us very , very , unique.
    ' The thing about thinking that makes us different or unique is that it makes free will possible. A Dolphin just does what Dolphins do , there is no evidence that it thinks to itself "Hey , I'm a Dolphin , I wonder if ...." it just does what nature has programmed it to do.'

    What utter nonsense.
    Do you think nature has programmed dolphins to jump through hoops?
  15. Cosmos
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    13 Jul '06 06:01
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    [b]God wants to test their faith.
    Good post, and thanks for taking the time to articulate it in such a cohesive and succinct manner. It's refreshing to see honest doubt from time to time.

    Without the slightest intention of insult, your post is a classic example of a wrong premise resulting in a wrong conclusion. As you pointed out, God is omnisci ...[text shortened]... ity to maximize the already-overwhelming bounty which flows from a right relationship with God.[/b]
    "This crazy little thing called life is not for His benefit to see how we will respond to grace, but rather for our benefit, for us to see how we will respond to grace."

    So what is judgement day all about then?
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