How to be saved???

Originally posted by epic0002
NoT Essential? Mark 16:16 He that believeth AND is Baptized shall be saved... I cant take that out of context. Acts 2:38 says that Baptism is for the remission of sins.

The thief on the cross was saved and was not baptized.

So, if a person receives Christ in the middle of the desert where there is no water and he dies, does that mean that he isn't saved?

I don't mean to be flippant, but a pastor once said, "You don't have to get wet to be saved."

Originally posted by whodey
I appreciate what you are trying to say visted. God is greater than what we can imagine. However, does this mean that we cannot talk about him or write about him? If so, the entire Bible is a book of idolatry. Christ would then be the walking incarnate being of such idolatry. I reject such a notion. In fact, you might say that I was attempting to smash ...[text shortened]... t, don't those who are intellectually gifted seem complex and somewhat contradictory as well?

In my view, such talking/writing can be, as I said, iconic. I have a large copy of Rublev’s “Trinity” on my wall. That is an icon. I do not think that is the Trinity, or what the Trinity looks like. On the other hand, I think the concept “Trinity” (or triune God) is also an icon—an iconic way of mentally representing what is beyond our ability to actually represent in thought or language. An icon, like a Zen koan, points always beyond itself.

I think all religious language/conceptualization is (or ought to be thought of as) iconic. I quoted above from three different religious expressions: Christianity, Judaism and Taoism. In Eastern Orthodox Christianity, and in Judaism, this sense of not idolizing the images “graven in our mind” seems far stronger (mainstream, actually) than in Western Christendom, especially Protestantism.

I think there can be many reasons why people cling to mental idols—and turn religious symbolism into such: fear of whatever they cannot strictly conceptualize (i.e., the ineffable mystery), dissatisfaction with not knowing, wanting some existential assurances, fear of uncertainty, etc. They want their faith (which, for me, is an existential attitude) to be ensured (or insured) epistemically: they want their faith to have support in “right belief”—belief in certain images that are claimed to accurately describe God or the Tao or whatever.

I think all of this is perfectly natural—perhaps it derives from our survival instincts. I read somewhere recently that the opposite of faith is not doubt or disbelief—the opposite of faith is anxiety. As long as one is anxious about having doubt, or about whether there might be some flaw in their belief-system, or as long as they think that faith must entail the certainty of their beliefs, their faith is still conditional.

As an example, a couple of years ago I got very defensive and even angry with FreakyKBH over what I thought was his deliberately restrictive use of the word “spiritual”. His insightful rejoinder: “I think you just lost your inner Buddha.” Yep.

One way to put it is that the goal of the “spiritual journey” is to live more and more into an unconditional faith, as an existential attitude of confidence in the face of existential mystery and uncertainty. Rather like an athlete, throwing the “hail Mary” pass in the last seconds of the game. The more confidence with which he executes the pass, the more likely it will go where he wants it to. And even if it doesn’t—even if the pass he’s attempting is really impossible to complete—it strikes me as a more fulfilling way to act, and to live, than the alternatives. And that is my struggle, my striving, my practice...

Originally posted by vistesd

One way to put it is that the goal of the “spiritual journey” is to live more and more into an unconditional faith, as an existential attitude of confidence in the face of existential mystery and uncertainty. Rather like an athlete, throwing the “hail Mary” pass in the last seconds of the game. The more confidence with which he executes the pass, the more l ...[text shortened]... act, and to live, than the alternatives. And that is my struggle, my striving, my practice...[/b]

I would agree that faith is conducive to achieving ones goals. It reminds me of the science fiction novel "Dune". One of the sayings in the book says that "fear is the mind killer". Really, that is dead on. Fear clouds ones thinking and contriubes to ones anxiety. In effect, it paralyzes you.

However, fear can abe a good thing. Especially in light of powers and events that are greater than you. For example, if you saw a tornado coming you would flee to your basement in fear, no? You forget about all else that may have been important to you at that particular time because you are paralyzed with the notion of dying in the tornado unless you run to your basement now. Conversly, in the book "Dune" there is a scene where the leading character is faced with being confronted with a deadly desert storm much like a tornado. However, instead of running in fear he says, "I will face my fear and let it pass through me." Miraculously in the book, he confronts the storm without fleeing and lives, however, I do not think this would happen for you. You see our faith can be misplaced depending on what you place your faith in. For me my faith resides in an all powerfull God. Therefore, no matter what happens I believe that in the end all will be OK. However, if my faith is misplaced then this is not the case. Perhaps I should be running like there is no tomorrow for that basement?!! That is, if there is no all powerful God to rescue me.

Originally posted by whodey
I would agree that faith is conducive to achieving ones goals. It reminds me of the science fiction novel "Dune". One of the sayings in the book says that "fear is the mind killer". Really, that is dead on. Fear clouds ones thinking and contriubes to ones anxiety. In effect, it paralyzes you.

However, fear can abe a good thing. Especially in light o ...[text shortened]... not the case. Perhaps I should be running like there is no tomorrow for that basement!!

You get saved by having your name in the book of life before God even created the world.

Originally posted by gaychessplayer
The thief on the cross was saved and was not baptized.

So, if a person receives Christ in the middle of the desert where there is no water and he dies, does that mean that he isn't saved?

I don't mean to be flippant, but a pastor once said, "You don't have to get wet to be saved."

The theif on the cross was in a different time dispansation then we are now Jesus had not yet died.

Originally posted by RBHILL
You get saved by having your name in the book of life before God even created the world.

No, you get saved by believing in Jesus Christ. That God has every believer written in the book of life before he created the world is due to God's omniscience. A man is condemned according to whether or not he resists the promptings of the Holy Spirit, when the Spirit convicts his heart of the truth of the Gospel. Salvation is available to all, but only God knows who will ultimately receive Him. It is because of such omniscience that God is able to know beforehand who His sheep are, yet give opportunity to all men to enter His kingdom.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
No, you get saved by believing in Jesus Christ. That God has every believer written in the book of life before he created the world is due to God's omniscience. A man is condemned according to whether or not he resists the promptings of the Holy Spirit, when the Spirit convicts his heart of the truth of the Gospel. Salvation is available to all, but o ...[text shortened]... ble to know beforehand who His sheep are, yet give opportunity to all men to enter His kingdom.

I like the way u worded that.

Originally posted by epic0002
May God have mercy on us all. I already wrote about the guy walking across the street.. I cannot say if he is saved or not... its not my place. Just because i try to follow the Bible and is Baptized doesnt even mean I will be going to Heaven. I mearly answered the question of is it nessasary to be baptized according to the Bible. Does it makes sense to be Baptized,who cares. I do what Im told to do in the Bible and Gods mercy and grace does the rest.

You can't say whether he is saved or not? Here are a list of Bible passages clearly proclaiming that salvation is by faith (note: in none of these passages does it say faith and baptism, but only faith).

"...even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction" (Rom. 3:22).

"...for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus" (Rom. 3:26).

"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law" (Rom. 3:28).

"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).

"Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).

"And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham" (Gal. 3:8).

"Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith" (Gal. 3:24).

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8).

"if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Romans 10:9-10).

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name" (John 1:12).

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God establishes covenants with His people. And the covenants which He establishes are always attended by some sort of outward sign (e.g., a rainbow, communion, circumcision, etc.). Baptism is the attending outward sign of the covenant established by Christ's blood between God and all those who believe. It is the outward sign of the inward cleansing of Christ's blood and replaces circumcision as the sign of God's new covenant.

Regarding this, note what Paul says about Abraham's faith: Was Abraham declared righteous before circumcision (read baptism) or after circumcision? Clearly before: Paul says, "For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised" (Romans 4:9-11).

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It is clearly the gospel that saves us. But what exactly is the gospel? It is found in 1 Cor. 15:1-4: "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures." The gospel is defined as the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus for our sins. Baptism is not mentioned here.

Additionally, in Acts, Peter was preaching the gospel, people got saved, and then they were baptized. Acts 10:44-46 says, "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, ‘Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.' So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days." These people were saved. The gift of the Holy Spirit was on the Gentiles and they were speaking in tongues. This is significant because tongues is a gift given to believers, see 1 Cor. 14:1-5. Also, unbelievers don't praise God. They can't because praise to the true God is a deep spiritual matter that is foreign to the unsaved (1 Cor. 2:14). Therefore, the ones in Acts 10 who are speaking in tongues and praising God are definitely saved and they are saved before they are baptized. This simply isn't an exception. It is a reality.

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The bottom line is, by maintaining that baptism is necessary for salvation you are adding a work, your own, to the finished work of Christ. And judging from what you said in your post, your faith in the finished work of Christ is non-existent ("Just because i try to follow the Bible and is Baptized doesnt even mean I will be going to Heaven" ). If that is so, if you have no trust in the finished work of Christ -- no assurance -- then you are in grave danger of not being saved. Galatians 5:4 says, "If you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace." Grace is not dependent upon works, and baptism is a work.