30 Sep 07
Originally posted by whodeyur third choice is it really much of a choice with hell as the reward for not being a servent?
You are right in that God knew beforehand what was to come. However, what were the alternatives?
1. Creation could have been under his direct control, thus they would have been forced to serve him.
2. He could have chosen not to create.
3. He could create with his creation having the option not to serve him or to serve him.
What we have today is the later option and I think the best option.
30 Sep 07
Originally posted by whodeyWe see a God of love and a God of judgement. Is this possible? We see a God of life and a God who takes life at times.
I said this in jest of coarse. However, I think I have made my point. There is a dichotomy of sorts in regards to the God of the Bible. There seems to be apparent contradictions when it comes to God's nature. We see a God of love and a God of judgement. Is this possible? We see a God of life and a God who takes life at times. Is this possible? There i ...[text shortened]... ll as watching others suffer or it is simply a risk one takes for loving. I propose the later.
I think what we see is a farcical figure of myth and story, yet He has somehow become the object of your idolatry. What are you trying to show with your theodicean sympathies? That He's just tragically misunderstood? Anyway, your theodicy fails miserably -- we've been over that before.
30 Sep 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasI know you're working under some sort of implicit assumption here that going to heaven or hell exhausts possibilities. But otherwise this is really just a false dichotomy. The guy probably just ceases to exist -- like anyone else who ever bit the dust.
So what about the guy who believes in and receives Christ, but dies while walking across the street to get baptized: is he going to heaven or hell?
30 Sep 07
Originally posted by LemonJelloAnd that, of course, would be your view. 🙂 However, I'm trying to get epic to admit that, biblically speaking, baptism isn't necessary for justification. He is dodging the question.
I know you're working under some sort of implicit assumption here that going to heaven or hell exhausts possibilities. But otherwise this is really just a false dichotomy. The guy probably just ceases to exist -- like anyone else who ever bit the dust.
30 Sep 07
Originally posted by Kevin McfarlandWhat other choice is there if hell is defined as seperation from God? So you want his life/love without the source? You want your cake and eat it to I guess?
ur third choice is it really much of a choice with hell as the reward for not being a servent?
30 Sep 07
2 edits
Originally posted by LemonJelloSo the God of the Bible is the source of my idolatry? Now that's a new one on me. In fact, the Bible says that ANYTHING that comes before God is the source of our idolatry. The only way you could say that he is the source of my idolatry would be to say that God exists but it is not the God of the Bible. Then again, only the Bible has an issue with idolatry. Therefore, only the God of the Bible in whom I believe seems to have an issue with idolatry. Who else cares?
[b]We see a God of love and a God of judgement. Is this possible? We see a God of life and a God who takes life at times.
I think what we see is a farcical figure of myth and story, yet He has somehow become the object of your idolatry. What are you trying to show with your theodicean sympathies? That He's just tragically misunderstood? Anyway, your theodicy fails miserably -- we've been over that before.[/b]
As far as the God of the Bible being misunderstood, that is exactly what I am saying. There is no two ways about it, things in the Bible appear contradictory. In fact, many of Christs teachings appear contradictory. These include:
"It is more blessed to give than to recieve"
"The first will be last and the last will be first"
"He that exalst himself will be abased and he that humbles himself will be exalted"
I could go on but I think you get the picture. Granted, we can see past these superficialy apparent contradictions and see that they are not really contradictions at all if we dig deeper into thier meanings. I would add to the list:
"Hell exists in a universe made by a God of love"
(or)
"Suffering exists in a universe created by a God of love"
30 Sep 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasMay God have mercy on us all. I already wrote about the guy walking across the street.. I cannot say if he is saved or not... its not my place. Just because i try to follow the Bible and is Baptized doesnt even mean I will be going to Heaven. I mearly answered the question of is it nessasary to be baptized according to the Bible. Does it makes sense to be Baptized,who cares. I do what Im told to do in the Bible and Gods mercy and grace does the rest.
And that, of course, would be your view. 🙂 However, I'm trying to get epic to admit that, biblically speaking, baptism isn't necessary for justification. He is dodging the question.
30 Sep 07
Originally posted by epic0002So which do you think is most important - receiving christ through faith or getting immersed in water? Is the water the most important thing here or is it just symbolic of something else? Cults often emphasis rituals like these because it prevents people from accessing God by themselves and it takes our eyes off the ball.
1. Paul did not people to be followers of him.. vs 15 "lest any should say i had baptized in mine own name.. please read the verses when you write them on here.
2. we are not to judge who gets saved and who doesnt.. 1Cor. 1:25 the foolishness of God is wiser than man. All we can do is read the bible and follow the commandments for OURSELVES not to say who goes to heaven or hell.Act 41-47, The LORD added daily such as should be saved.
30 Sep 07
Originally posted by epic0002Are you a christian?
May God have mercy on us all. I already wrote about the guy walking across the street.. I cannot say if he is saved or not... its not my place. Just because i try to follow the Bible and is Baptized doesnt even mean I will be going to Heaven. I mearly answered the question of is it nessasary to be baptized according to the Bible. Does it makes sense to be Baptized,who cares. I do what Im told to do in the Bible and Gods mercy and grace does the rest.
30 Sep 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterdoes it matter what I think. would if i think you should jump off a bridge? The Bible plainy states that you must be Baptized "for the remission of sins". When God commanded that Naaman wash 7 times in the river Jordan to rid leprosy,Namaan said "arnt the rivers of damascus better?"you see it wasnt the water of the dirty river Jordan - it was doing what God had commanded that rid the leprosy.
So which do you think is most important - receiving christ through faith or getting immersed in water? Is the water the most important thing here or is it just symbolic of something else? Cults often emphasis rituals like these because it prevents people from accessing God by themselves and it takes our eyes off the ball.
01 Oct 07
Originally posted by whodeyWho else cares?
So the God of the Bible is the source of my idolatry? Now that's a new one on me. In fact, the Bible says that ANYTHING that comes before God is the source of our idolatry. The only way you could say that he is the source of my idolatry would be to say that God exists but it is not the God of the Bible. Then again, only the Bible has an issue with idolatr ...[text shortened]... a God of love"
(or)
"Suffering exists in a universe created by a God of love"
I do, as you ought to know from past arguments. 🙂
Everything thing that we try to say about the ineffable mystery* is either iconic (pointing into the abyss of being), or idolatrous.
In terms of the Biblical writings, both the early Christian writer known as Pseudo-Dionysus (5th century C.E.) and the Jewish writer Maimonides (Moshe ben Maimon, 1135-1204 C.E.) warned that it would be better to say nothing at all about God than to become attached to such man-made images, even—perhaps, especially—the images presented in the Bible. David S. Ariel, in his What Do Jews Believe, after discussing the paradoxical nature of Judaism’s “sacred myths” (his term), and various ways in which Jews understand and have understood God (monistic/theistic, immanent/transcendent, etc.), puts it this way: “Every time we talk about God or what we believe about God, we are creating Him in our own image. It is impossible to avoid committing an act of idolatry if we are to say anything about God. Jewish belief must always be critical of itself and constantly attempt to challenge itself. Every time we have an image of God, we must destroy that image and create the image anew. There has been a progression in what Jews believe about God because of the constant self-criticism of Jewish belief from antiquity until today.”
As rabbi and scholar Marc-Alain Ouaknin stresses in his book The Burnt Book: Reading Talmud, every attempt to read the ancient texts (in ancient Hebrew) is an inescapably creative/interpretive process. The text is not simply received. Each line of text, each verse (indeed, each word) has layers of meanings and associations, and each layer has a myriad possible interpretations. To bring one’s own torah to the Torah is to engage in a kind of interpretive dialogue with the text—out of which engagement new Torah is created. To simply accept what someone else has said about the text is relinquish that responsibility. To assert a one-and-only “right” meaning is itself a form of linguistic idolatry.
And—
“Every definition of God leads to heresy; definition is spiritual idolatry. Even attributing mind and will to God, even attributing divinity itself, and the name ‘God’—these, too, are definitions. Were it not for the subtle awareness that all these are just sparkling flashes of that which transcends definition—these, too, would engender heresy. ...
“The greatest impediment to the human spirit results from the fact that the conception of God is fixed in a particular form, due to childish habit and imagination. This is a spark of the defect of idolatry, of which we must always be aware. ...
“The infinite transcends every particular content of faith.” (Rav Abraham Isaac Kook, quoted in Daniel Matt The Essential Kabbalah)
“One day you may say, ‘I found God, I know him, he is so and so, he is there and there, he is in me, in creation, in the eucharist ...’ That is a day of disaster for you because you will have found your God, your own projection, so pitiful and small. These gods - these idols - in turn keep us pitiful and small. We would fight for them ... They can be terrible ... Mystery does not require defenders. Idols do. Mystery makes us humble.” (Anthony DeMello, SJ; Some of Father DeMello’s views and writings were condemned by the church posthumously)
“The Tao that can be spoken of is not the real Tao;
“the name that can be named is not the ultimate name.” (Lao Tzu)
________________________________________
* Which I am not convinced needs to be “supernaturalized”; but that’s another issue...
02 Oct 07
Originally posted by chessGosuI really was 100% serious with this post. I have had this told to me and my wife belives it. So I am just trying to get a bible answer to my post from pepole who belive the bible Thanks
This whole thread was a hoex. The thread starter was definitely 100% not serious. Just so you gullible christian's know.
02 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by vistesdI appreciate what you are trying to say visted. God is greater than what we can imagine. However, does this mean that we cannot talk about him or write about him? If so, the entire Bible is a book of idolatry. Christ would then be the walking incarnate being of such idolatry. I reject such a notion. In fact, you might say that I was attempting to smash the idolatry of putting God in a "monster God" box. This is done by simply seeing attributes about God in scripture that they deem to be less than desirable and then assume to know all there is about him. In fact, much of what we know about him via scripture seems contradictory. I view this simplistic approach to be an idolatrous one. If God be God then such a God is far more complex than we give him credit. Therefore, should not such a God, if he exists, seem contradictory? In contrast, don't those who are intellectually gifted seem complex and somewhat contradictory as well?
[b]Who else cares?
I do, as you ought to know from past arguments. 🙂
Everything thing that we try to say about the ineffable mystery* is either iconic (pointing into the abyss of being), or idolatrous.
In terms of the Biblical writings, both the early Christian writer known as Pseudo-Dionysus (5th century C.E.) and the Jewish writer Maimonide ...[text shortened]... ____
* Which I am not convinced needs to be “supernaturalized”; but that’s another issue...[/b]