Humans are egotistical when it comes to god.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Disney science, plain ole human science, and religion are just labels
we use to describe our methods and foundations,
So science and religion are the same?

If they produce something that must be believed in and it cannot be
proven then there are beliefs generated where they have the same
results yes. You have to see it is not that science itself is the same as
religion, the methods of finding out and taking on faith are quite
different, but people are the same, and people take what is given
them, and do what they will with it. They can see a animal stand in
front of a mirror and say, they know what that animal is thinking, is
that science, do they know? No, but if it gets accepted we have entered
into Disney science, the only thing that it really shows is someone
thinks they can do what Dr. Dolittle did in real life, and others believe them
too, and they count themselves wise in the believing of it.
Kelly

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Show me your evidence. I've presented mine.


[edit; again, with you, it boils down to the narcissistic view that humans are the only animals capable of self-awareness. You've demonstrated a lack of knowledge or evidence, and merely complained.]

You showing me your evidence is telling me that the animal knows
its them when they are infront of a mirror? How do I know that is true?
Is it just because you say so, or some other person does, Dr Dolittle
perhaps?
Kelly

Originally posted by scottishinnz
What is wrong with you? Why can't you understand this?! They clearly know that the thing in the mirror is them! Elephants will reach up with their trunk and touch a white spot painted on their ear - they clearly know that the thing in the mirror is themselves. That shows that they know that they exist. They are self-aware. I wonder whether you are, however.

Okay, it isn't that they may or may not touch that spot anyway, but
because it is something you want to believe, so you do. I would say
that qualifies for Disney science, and you believe it to be true do you?
Kelly

Originally posted by sonhouse
Just out of curiosity, what does the term 'self-aware' meant to you?

It is self explanatory in my opinion, I'm aware of myself in the
universe and my place in it. That plays out on several levels, none of
which requires smoke and mirrors.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
It is self explanatory in my opinion, I'm aware of myself in the
universe and my place in it. That plays out on several levels, none of
which requires smoke and mirrors.
Kelly

You say in the universe, what do you mean?
Does it preclude that you must know the scale of the universe in some sense, or merely that something exists beyond yourself?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Quite right it brings us back to that doesn't it, who we are, and what
are we compared to animals? If it is all just programmed nature from
what we are to what the animals are, I'd agree with you there isn't
much of a difference between us and animals besides where we sit
upon the food chain, but even there that still puts us on top. If God
created us ...[text shortened]... or wrong answer
for everything, no matter what those that teach Disney science says.
Kelly

With great power comes great responsibility.

Personally I feel that we are acually better than animals, well, in the ways that matter anyway, we are making the best of our position, fair enough, but we must take responsibilty and take care of our animal neighbours: clearly we aren't at the moment.
I'd like to link this back oursleves though again, damaging the ecosystem will ultimately damage ourselves, we are part of the ecosystem, yes we can manipulate it, yes we can skew it in our favour, but if it collapses, so will we.
Not like I'm saying this won't be the case in the future (you never know) but it certainly is the case at the moment.

The way we treat animals at the moment is disgraceful, the animals we will kill for food, often feel a lot of pain when they are slaughtered, I don't care if they don't right or wrong, or don't understand what is happening, they still feel that pain. I'm not a vegetarian though, so I feel really guilty...:'(
Or how about hunting, more importantly this often isn't even for food, we are causing these animals a lot of pain so you can have a fur carpet, or leather on your back. Yes, I know this could be justified as needed because we need clothing, but I don't see this as the case these days because there are dozens of other choices.
Bull fighting for example is is very painful for the animal, they get it run around a lot, getting it exhausted, at the same time, sticking what can only be described as knives into the animal, depending on where you go.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Okay, it isn't that they may or may not touch that spot anyway, but
because it is something you want to believe, so you do. I would say
that qualifies for Disney science, and you believe it to be true do you?
Kelly

Well, that's easily tested: put the spot on some elephants, and not on others. If the ones with the spot touch it significantly more than those without then you can be pretty sure it's not just chance.

Similar tests have been done with chimps. Not only do they investigate the spot but they also use the mirror to look inside their own mouths and any other part of their anatomy that they cannot normally see without a mirror. Most other animals either ignore the reflection or treat it as they would another member of their species.

This is strong evidence that Elephants, Chimps and one or two oter species are self aware where the rest of the animal kingdom are not. If you don't think it is evidence of this then please suggest another hypothesis that explains the behaviour of these species when compared with most other animals.

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by Penguin
Well, that's easily tested: put the spot on some elephants, and not on others. If the ones with the spot touch it significantly more than those without then you can be pretty sure it's not just chance.

Similar tests have been done with chimps. Not only do they investigate the spot but they also use the mirror to look inside their own mouths and any other xplains the behaviour of these species when compared with most other animals.

--- Penguin.

This is strong evidence that Elephants, Chimps and one or two oter species are self aware where the rest of the animal kingdom are not. If you don't think it is evidence of this then please suggest another hypothesis that explains the behaviour of these species when compared with most other animals.

It is the nature of elephants to touch spots on their heads when stood in front of a mirror...god makes this so

If god does not say to you x is a fact then science is rubbish because you're only guessing....that we live in a what seems a highly technologically advanced society is just a big 'ole coincidence...so far we have been very lucky that things work the way we guess they will work because everyone knows that science cannot be taken seriously...ain't that right KJ?

Originally posted by Bad wolf
You say in the universe, what do you mean?
Does it preclude that you must know the scale of the universe in some sense, or merely that something exists beyond yourself?

Being aware does take upon it different levels does it not?
I'm not at all suggesting animals are not aware at some level
any more than insects, since they take care of their own
needs as in food and so on for themselves and their young,
an animal will scratch when it itches and so on too. Instinct
and so on are like programmed responses, with people you can
have someone who has a desire for sex among those around
them, but they do not have to act upon that desire, they can
and should limit that desire. An animal will with opportunity
unless some outside force trained it will act upon its desires,
be it to the strong go the spoils of mating, or people training
them they will act as each animals act.

Bottom line there is a difference between when an animal acts
and when a human does. An animal will behave as its nature
has programmed it, but we do hold people responsible for their
actions even if they are simply acting to fulfill their own desires,
desires alone are not a reason to do things among us, and we
know that is true. There isn’t a reasoning out things within the
animal kingdom, there will be fights for the leadership roll, there
will be fights for the top X status and all that brings to each
group.
Kelly

Originally posted by Penguin
Well, that's easily tested: put the spot on some elephants, and not on others. If the ones with the spot touch it significantly more than those without then you can be pretty sure it's not just chance.

Similar tests have been done with chimps. Not only do they investigate the spot but they also use the mirror to look inside their own mouths and any other ...[text shortened]... xplains the behaviour of these species when compared with most other animals.

--- Penguin.

You put a spot on an animal, how do you know that spot isn't causing
a reaction outside of the spot being seen, even we don't always scatch
and itch as soon as it is felt? It is again an animal mind reading
guessing game!
Kelly

Originally posted by Bad wolf
With great power comes great responsibility.

Personally I feel that we are acually better than animals, well, in the ways that matter anyway, we are making the best of our position, fair enough, but we must take responsibilty and take care of our animal neighbours: clearly we aren't at the moment.
I'd like to link this back oursleves though again, damag ...[text shortened]... king what can only be described as knives into the animal, depending on where you go.

Spiderman would be proud, but among animals is that true, do the
loins care about when they eat a zebra when they have the power
to do so? Will they not act without regard to what will happen later
just because that is how they eat? If we know better, there is a reason
for that, because we are.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You put a spot on an animal, how do you know that spot isn't causing
a reaction outside of the spot being seen, even we don't always scatch
and itch as soon as it is felt? It is again an animal mind reading
guessing game!
Kelly

Accepting something as fact based upon the unimaginable probability that it may be not true (due to the compound effect of several situations contributing to it that themselves alone are extremely un-likely) is just stupid when you can get all your facts out of the bible; for this book is the word of god people!!! a vicar told me! (and all vicars know all things) when will you folks ever learn???

ain't this right KJ?

Originally posted by KellyJay
You put a spot on an animal, how do you know that spot isn't causing
a reaction outside of the spot being seen, even we don't always scatch
and itch as soon as it is felt? It is again an animal mind reading
guessing game!
Kelly

Kelly, your spirituality would be best suited if you would take your profound
skepticism and point it at something other than that which allows the
conclusions you find most convenient to your theological viewpoint.

We can rule out that the animal is irritated by the spot by putting other
spots on animals where they cannot be seen by reflection and noting
that the animal doesn't take any great pains to scratch or itch it (this
is, in fact, what is done in control groups).

Nemesio

Originally posted by Bad wolf
The way we treat animals at the moment is disgraceful, the animals we will kill for food, often feel a lot of pain when they are slaughtered, I don't care if they don't right or wrong, or don't understand what is happening, they still feel that pain. I'm not a vegetarian though, so I feel really guilty...:'(

No you don't. A person who feels guilty, especially one who feels
guilty because they have rationally discerned what they are doing is
wrong, will change his/her actions.

It is because you value the sensation of meat on your tongue greater
than the harm that you acknowledge and validate that you continue to
eat meat.

You don't feel guilty. You are just saying that to make yourself feel better.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Bad wolf
With great power comes great responsibility.

Personally I feel that we are acually better than animals, well, in the ways that matter anyway, we are making the best of our position, fair enough, but we must take responsibilty and take care of our animal neighbours: clearly we aren't at the moment.
I'd like to link this back oursleves though again, damag ...[text shortened]... king what can only be described as knives into the animal, depending on where you go.

In what sense are we better than animals?