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Originally posted by KellyJayIndeed, but I don't really see us being 'programmed' to act a certain way, varying with the different stimuli put on us, much of a problem; it kind of brings us back to the old debate of 'free will', but, also, yes, spirits and souls.
Programmed or evolved, how do you see them as different from one
another, if is evolved it is the program of DNA, if it is something else
you have to show me how you come to that understanding? If all there
is to life is the physical material we are made of the and the other
forces in the material world bound up in our and the animal make up,
that redu ...[text shortened]... s
the argument for something more which could lead to a discussion on
souls or spirits.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayDo you think people with severe learning disabilities* who just do what they do all day with out any apparant regard for human conventions are also animals KJ?
You and Bad Wolf brought souls into this discussion not me.
With regard to animal behaviors as I said, we hold their actions
to a different standard than we hold ourselves, the reason being
is they are animals. We on the other hand know right from wrong,
we know when we are taking something that does not belong to us,
we know when we are murdering some ...[text shortened]... ing but an animal. It may excuse your
bad behavior between your ears, but no where else.
Kelly
*the one's who's ability to understand the world around them, let alone right from wrong may also have to be inferred from tests
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Originally posted by AgergNope, as I said before when we do things and when animals do things
Do you think people with severe learning disabilities* who just do what they do all day with out any apparant regard for human conventions are also animals KJ?
*the one's who's ability to understand the world around them, let alone right from wrong may also have to be inferred from tests
there are differences, the reality behind who we are and what we are
plays out. We can do those things we know we shouldn't an animal will
only act as its nature makes it. The fact that people want to lower the
human condition down to the animal level is as I'm now going to start
calling it, Disney science.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayNo. We're calling you in error because you are wrong. Worse, you have provided no evidence of any sort that you are right. Your entire argument boils down to "they aren't because I don't want them to be".
Back down, you guys are the ones living in a fantasy here, with dogs
making promises, mirrors giving people reason to think that animals
are some how self aware like we are, because of some reaction the
animals gave that makes the person watching them think they can
understand the animals thought process, and then the person moves
on to think they can ...[text shortened]... nding. You
are seeing what you want to see, and calling me in error because I
disagree.
Kelly
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Originally posted by Bad wolfQuite right it brings us back to that doesn't it, who we are, and what
Indeed, but I don't really see us being 'programmed' to act a certain way, varying with the different stimuli put on us, much of a problem; it kind of brings us back to the old debate of 'free will', but, also, yes, spirits and souls.
are we compared to animals? If it is all just programmed nature from
what we are to what the animals are, I'd agree with you there isn't
much of a difference between us and animals besides where we sit
upon the food chain, but even there that still puts us on top. If God
created us which I believe did happen, than we are still on top, but
not because us and our abilities but just because that was where God
put us; it would remove anything we could take credit for in our station
in life. If we viewed this just with evolution as a cause, if we are were
we are only due to evolution and not God, that than becomes us
making the most of what we have, right and wrong go out the window,
and it is what it is, our power would mean right makes right.
I don't believe that might makes right, power is useful but does not
make one better than another. If the scale of what is better or any
scale we come up with, it boils down to only one thing, personal
taste nothing more, you like what you like, you call what you want
to be better or worse, there really isn’t a real right or wrong answer
for everything, no matter what those that teach Disney science says.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayKnowing and not knowing why you have morals, or feel good or bad is entirely beside the point. Stop trying to wriggle out.
We can call a truth table within a software program right and wrong,
to, that does not mean your computer understands right and wrong,
it only means that it is programmed to behave this way or that
under certain conditions nothing more. Within the animal world you
are projecting something here within it, human knowledge of right
and wrong, when you cannot 'know it' you simply think you see it.
Kelly
Originally posted by scottishinnzGo look in a mirror and tell me how that makes you aware of yourself
Knowing and not knowing why you have morals, or feel good or bad is entirely beside the point. Stop trying to wriggle out.
and then put a animal in front of a mirror and tell me what that
animal is thinking. We will talk after that as far as the animals being
aware.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayWell, if you can recognise yourself, it shows you have self-awareness.
Go look in a mirror and tell me how that makes you aware of yourself
and then put a animal in front of a mirror and tell me what that
animal is thinking. We will talk after that as far as the animals being
aware.
Kelly
Originally posted by scottishinnzWhich is what your argument is too, look the animals are doing this
No. We're calling you in error because you are wrong. Worse, you have provided no evidence of any sort that you are right. Your entire argument boils down to "they aren't because I don't want them to be".
or that, we know what they think and are aware of which is too, just
you saying what you want to believe is true, is it not? If you claim
your views are the correct ones, remind me again, where you got your
truth detector.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayWhat is wrong with you? Why can't you understand this?! They clearly know that the thing in the mirror is them! Elephants will reach up with their trunk and touch a white spot painted on their ear - they clearly know that the thing in the mirror is themselves. That shows that they know that they exist. They are self-aware. I wonder whether you are, however.
You know, I would also believe you if you told me the same thing
about you too, but a dog, an elephant, you can read their minds and
know what they are aware of?
Kelly
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Originally posted by KellyJayShow me your evidence. I've presented mine.
Which is what your argument is too, look the animals are doing this
or that, we know what they think and are aware of which is too, just
you saying what you want to believe is true, is it not? If you claim
your views are the correct ones, remind me again, where you got your
truth detector.
Kelly
[edit; again, with you, it boils down to the narcissistic view that humans are the only animals capable of self-awareness. You've demonstrated a lack of knowledge or evidence, and merely complained.]
Originally posted by KellyJayJust out of curiosity, what does the term 'self-aware' meant to you?
Which is what your argument is too, look the animals are doing this
or that, we know what they think and are aware of which is too, just
you saying what you want to believe is true, is it not? If you claim
your views are the correct ones, remind me again, where you got your
truth detector.
Kelly