Originally posted by checkbaiterWell, there are those big triangular shaped thingies in the desert near Cairo. I know they exist, my son Kevin climbed up the side of one, pisssed off the cops no end. It is recorded Imo invented them.
Fairy tales? What makes you think Imhotep, Aristotle were real? Do you have proof?
I am not saying the bible or new testament doesn't exist or is faked. I am saying there was no deity involved in its creation. Humans are well known to be able to come up with tales of miracles when in fact if you had been there you would have seen it was just man made tales designed usually to scare the wits out of the unwary in order to control the congregations involved.
Originally posted by checkbaiterThat is the bottom line in my opinion! He is worthy.
He also spoke of the reason for all the pain and heart ache through out history and how he would save the entire human race!
Sigh, if only men would come to his redeeming sacrifice!
What Jesus Christ offers is so wonderful, it is beyond anything we could have imagined.
But man is so into himself with such unworthy pride, they will not. Their end will be just, if they deny the one who died for them.
Originally posted by KellyJayLet's see if I have it straight: JC and the boys come back to Earth, they save only those in the clique. Does that mean the dead ones in the clique are brought back to life, whatever, a billion? ten billion, whatever, all those in the clique are included, but the whatever, 100 billion of those not in the clique, dead or alive, are out. Does that about cover it?
That is the bottom line in my opinion! He is worthy.
Originally posted by checkbaiterYeah, but Aristotle's not claiming to have walked on water, is he?
If the critics of the Bible dismiss the New Testament as reliable information, then they must also dismiss the reliability of the writings of Plato, Aristotle, Caesar, Homer, and the other authors mentioned in the chart at the beginning of the paper. On the other hand, if the critics acknowledge the historicity and writings of those other individuals, th ...[text shortened]... anuscript-evidence
There are only 49 copies of Aristotle vs 5600 copies of the New Testament.
Originally posted by josephwThen you've begged the question. If you are reserving the word "create" for things brought into being by an omnipotent entity and insisting that everything is created you automatically have a creator. But in that case you have to show that everything is created and I don't accept that it is in the sense of the word "create" that you have insisted on.
The word "create" isn't the same thing as "made". Sand dunes are made. Mountains are made. Ford F150s are made.
"Creation", in the context of the thought of this thread, is the act of an omniscient and omnipotent being whereby all that exists came into existence from nothing.
[b]".., there is no requirement to introduce a creator God to explain the pro ...[text shortened]... that says there is no creator must provide proof of if they are going to say God doesn't exist.
Originally posted by DeepThoughtπᾶς (pas)
Then you've begged the question. If you are reserving the word "create" for things brought into being by an omnipotent entity and insisting that everything is created you automatically have a creator. But in that case you have to show that everything is created and I don't accept that it is in the sense of the word "create" that you have insisted on.
Transliteration: pas
Pronunciation: pä's
Part of Speech: adjective
Root Word (Etymology): including all the forms of declension
Outline of Biblical Usage:
individually
each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
collectively
some of all types
KJV Translation Count:
1,243 Totalall 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31, everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11, no +3756 9, every thing 7, any 7, whatsoever 6, whosoever +3739 +302 3, always +1223 3, daily +2250 2, any thing 2, no +3361 2, not tr 7, misc 26
Colossians 1:16, 17
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Merriam-Webster
Create
transitive verb
1 : to bring into existence <God created the heaven and the earth — Genesis 1:1(Authorized Version)>
2 a : to invest with a new form, office, or rank <was created a lieutenant>
b : to produce or bring about by a course of action or behavior <her arrival created a terrible fuss> <create new jobs>
3 : cause, occasion <famine creates high food prices>
4 a : to produce through imaginative skill <create a painting>
b : design <creates dresses>
intransitive verb
1 : to make or bring into existence something new
2 : to set up a scoring opportunity in basketball <create off the dribble>
I am using "create" (creation) to mean "bring into existence". That implies that that which was "brought into existence" had no prior existence until "all things" (πᾶς (pas) ) were created.
The verse quoted above is a perfect example of pure logic. The idea or thought of a creator of all things leaves no room for a contradictory idea or thought. (Not that one can't do so or attempt to do so), but that the verse is all inclusive and absolute.
The idea of a creator of all things can be believed or not, but it is perfectly clear what it means.
I am not "begging the question", I am merely asserting The Truth as it is simply stated in God's Word.
Originally posted by DeepThoughtWhich proves the point I made in an earlier post. No one has ever lived the kind of life that Jesus lived. No one can make the claims about himself that Jesus made simply because they would be lying. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. It is true because Jesus is the only one that can say that in truth.
Yeah, but Aristotle's not claiming to have walked on water, is he?
Jesus is the single most unique person who has ever lived.
Originally posted by sonhouseThe way I understand it, all will be raised from the dead to be judged for what they did while in the body. Some will be given rewards and many will be forgiven of their sins and receive eternal life to live happily ever after. Those judged to be evil and not forgiven will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone and continue to die in torment forever and ever.
Let's see if I have it straight: JC and the boys come back to Earth, they save only those in the clique. Does that mean the dead ones in the clique are brought back to life, whatever, a billion? ten billion, whatever, all those in the clique are included, but the whatever, 100 billion of those not in the clique, dead or alive, are out. Does that about cover it?
Originally posted by josephwUnique is this have it or not have it property. There isn't a most unique entity.
Which proves the point I made in an earlier post. No one has ever lived the kind of life that Jesus lived. No one can make the claims about himself that Jesus made simply because they would be lying. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. It is true because Jesus is the only one that can say that in truth.
Jesus is the single most unique person who has ever lived.
Originally posted by wolfgang59You don't get it do you?....
I can rectify that with a photocopier.
1. How many times must a fairy story be copied to make it true?
2. Would only 1 copy of the NT make it false?
The New Testament is constantly under attack, and its reliability and accuracy are often contested by critics. If the critics want to disregard the New Testament, then they must also disregard other ancient writings by Plato, Aristotle, and Homer. This is because the New Testament documents are better preserved and more numerous than any other ancient writings. Because they are so numerous, they can be cross checked for accuracy . . . and they are very consistent.
There are presently 5,686 Greek manuscripts in existence today for the New Testament.1 If we were to compare the number of New Testament manuscripts to other ancient writings, we find that the New Testament manuscripts far outweigh the others in quantity.2
2 edits
Originally posted by josephwFalse premise.
There is no mystery. We were created. To state that our origin is a mystery means one simply doesn't know, or believe, and it implies confusion and bewilderment of the mind in the perception of reality.
That isn't meant to be perceived as a slight or insult. It is merely saying something in as strong a way possible to drive home the point.
The reality of creation is self evident to the opened and unbiased mind.
Of course it's a mystery. The strength of your own personal faith and conviction ~ i.e. that you yourself feel certain you know what happened and how it came about ~ does not alter the fact that it is a mystery that has animated humans throughout their history. Your own theories/ideology/hopes/superstitions (call them what you will) - along with any name calling you attach to your assertions - simply cannot alter this fact.
Originally posted by josephwNo, you have either begged the question or equivocated, and quoting the Bible doesn't help you. Your claim is that words like "creation" apply only to things that are made by a universal creator. You then claim that all things were created and so your creator must exist. The problem is that if you insist on such a narrow definition of "creation" then I am free to insist that there is no proof that anything was ever created. Your argument boils down to "Things exist. Without being created nothing can exist, therefore there must be a creator.". It is not at all clear that this is true - you need an additional axiom that "extant things were created by a conscious entity." - that statement requires a lot of justification.
πᾶς (pas)
Transliteration: pas
Pronunciation: pä's
Part of Speech: adjective
Root Word (Etymology): including all the forms of declension
Outline of Biblical Usage:
individually
each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
collectively
some of all types
KJV Translation Count:
1,243 Totalall 748, all things 170, every 117, ...[text shortened]... ot "begging the question", I am merely asserting The Truth as it is simply stated in God's Word.
Originally posted by checkbaiterYes it is. The Bible is a book of law and a book of history. Aristotle was writing textbooks not histories. So the historicity of Aristotle's works are not disputed, they are not histories, and the judgement about their validity is based on different criteria. The Bible does contain a history and so you need to be comparing it with Tacitus and the like. Most historians regard Tacitus as reliable by the standards of the day, but nevertheless take what he says with a pinch of salt. So you are not comparing like with like, and all "histories" from any era before the enlightenment are regarded with extreme skepticism by professional historians. So you made a great big category error, further to that you don't seem to get that histories that contain supernatural elements are clearly going to be regarded as less reliable than histories without supernatural elements.
That's not the point...