1. Standard memberDasa
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    09 Feb '11 05:56
    "Vegetarian food leaves a deep impression on our nature. If the whole world adopts vegetarianism, it can change the destiny of humankind."
    Albert Einstein


    "There is just no reason why animals should be slaughtered to serve as human diet when there are so many substitutes. Man can live without meat."
    The Dalai Lama


    "If man wants freedom why keep birds and animals in cages? Truly man is the king of beasts, for his brutality exceeds them. We live by the death of others. We are burial places! I have since an early age abjured the use of meat."
    Leonardo-da-Vinci


    "I do feel that spiritual progress does demand at some stage that we should cease to kill our fellow creatures for the satisfaction of our bodily wants."
    Mahatma Gandhi


    "Flesh eating is unprovoked murder."
    Benjamin Franklin


    "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. He shall eat butter and honey, so that he may know the evil from the good."
    Isaiah 7:14-15


    "...Behold I have given you every herb bearing seed which is upon the face of all the earth and every tree in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat..."
    Genesis 1:29


    "Thou shalt not kill."
    Exodus 20:13


    "One should treat animals such as deer, camels, asses, monkeys, mice, snakes, birds and flies exactly like one's own son. How little difference there actually is between children and these innocent animals."
    Srimad Bhagavatam 7.14.9


    "To avoid causing terror to living beings, let the disciple refrain from eating meat...the food of the wise is that which is consumed by the sadhus (holy men), it does not consist of meat... There may be some foolish people in the future who will say I permitted meat-eating and that I partook of meat myself, but meat-eating I have not permitted to anyone, I do not permit, I will not permit meat-eating in any form in future, in any manner and in any place. It is unconditionally prohibited for all."
    Lord Buddha


    "We pray on Sundays that we may have light/To guide our footsteps on the path we tread;/We are sick of war, we don't want to fight,/And yet we gorge ourselves upon the dead."
    George Bernard Shaw


    "Every act of irreverence for life, every act which neglects life, which is indifferent to and wastes life, is a step towards the love of death. This choice man must make at every minute. Never were the consequences of the wrong choice as total and as irreversible as they are today. Never was the warning of the Bible so urgent: "I have put before you life and death, blessing and curse. Choose life, that you and your children may live."
    Deuteronomy 30:19) Erich Fromm


    "Cruelty to animals is as if man did not love God."
    Cardinal John H. Newman


    "Plant life instead of animal food is the keystone of regeneration. Jesus used bread instead of flesh and wine in place of blood at the Lord's Supper."
    German Composer Richard Wagner (1813)


    "Man did not weave the web of life: he is merely a strand in it. Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself. To harm the earth is to heap contempt on its creator."
    Red Indian Chief (1854)


    "If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men."
    St. Francis of Assisi


    "Killing is a denial of love. To kill or to eat what another has killed is to rejoice in cruelty. And cruelty hardens our hearts and blinds our vision, and we are unable to see that they whom we kill are our fellow brothers and sisters in the One Family of Creation."
    G.L. Rudd, author of Why Kill For Food?


    "Vegetarianism is a way of life that we should all move toward for economic survival, physical well-being and spiritual integrity."
    Father Thomas Berry, Fordham University, New York


    "To be non-violent to human beings and to be a killer or enemy of poor animals is Satan's philosophy. In this age there is always enmity against animals, and therefore the poor creatures are always anxious. The reaction of the poor animals is being forced on human society, and therefore there is always the strain of cold or hot war between men, individually, collectively or nationally...
    Pythagoras


    "The earth affords a lavish supply of riches, of innocent foods, and offers you banquets that involve no bloodshed or slaughter; only beasts satisfy their hunger with flesh, and not even all of those, because horses, cattle, and sheep live on grass. As long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seeds of murder and pain cannot reap joy and love."
    Pythagoras


    "For my part I rather wonder both by what accident and in what state of mind the first man touched his mouth to gore and brought his lips to the flesh of a dead creature, set forth tables of dead, stale bodies, and ventured to call food and nourishment the parts that had a little before bellowed and cried, moved and lived. How could his eyes endure the slaughter when throats were slit and hides flayed and limbs torn from limb? How could his nose endure the stench? How was it that the pollution did not turn away his taste, which made contact with sores of others and sucked juices and serums from mortal wounds? It is certainly not lions or wolves that we eat out of self-defense; on the contrary, we ignore these and slaughter harmless, tame creatures without stings or teeth to harm us. For the sake of a little flesh we deprive them of sun, of light, of the duration of life to which they are entitled by birth and being."
    Plutarch


    "If you declare that you are naturally designed for such a diet, then first kill for yourself what you want to eat. Do it, however, only through your own resources, unaided by cleaver or cudgel or any kind of ax."
    Plutarch


    "The steam of meat darkens the light of the spirit...One hardly can have virtue when one enjoys meat meals and feasts..."
    St. Basil


    "...Ethics has not only to do with mankind but with the animal creation as well. This is witnessed in the purpose of St. Francis of Assisi. Thus we shall arrive that ethics is reverence for all life. This is the ethic of love widened universally. It is the ethic of Jesus now recognized as a necessity of thought...Only a universal ethic which embraces every living creature can put us in touch with the universe and the will which is there manifest..."
    Albert Schweitzer


    "I am full of the burnt offering of rams and the fat of fed beasts. I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of goats...Bring no more vain offerings... When you spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes though you make many prayers, and I will not hear you. For your hands are full of blood..."
    Isaiah 1:11-15


    "I will have mercy and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings..."
    Hosea 6:6


    "...Therefore the Lord will give you meat and you shall eat. You shall not eat one day or two days, or ten days or twenty days, but till it comes out at your nostrils and becomes loathsome to you, because you have rejected the Lord..."
    Numbers 11:18-20


    "...He who gives permission, he who kills the animal, he who sells the slaughtered animal, he who cooks the animal, he who administers the distribution of the flesh, and at last he who eats the flesh are all murderers and all of them are punishable under the law of karma."
    The Laws of Manu (5:55)


    "Meat can never be obtained without injury to living creatures, and injury to sentient beings is detrimental to the attainment of heavenly bliss; let him therefore shun the use of meat."
    The Laws of Manu


    "Having well considered the disgusting origin of flesh and the cruelty of fettering and slaying of corporeal beings, let him entirely abstain from eating flesh."
    The Laws of Manu


    "Those who never harm others by (physical deeds), by thought and speech, in whatever condition they may be, do not go to Yama's abode. Men who harm other creatures do not go to heaven, in spite of their reciting Vedas, giving gifts, practicing austerities or performing sacrifices. Harmlessness is a great form of piety. Harmlessness alone is a great penance. Harmlessness is a great gift. This what the sages say."
    Padma Purana III 31-25-28


    "Whoever eats raw or cooked flesh, and whoever destroys a fetus shall be destroyed by us from here."
    Atharva Veda 8.6.23


    "A cruel and wretched person who maintains his existence at the cost of others' lives deserves to be killed for his own eternal well being, otherwise he will go down by his own actions."
    Srimad Bhagavatam 1.7.37


    "The devotees of the Lord are released from all kinds of sins because they eat food which is offered first for sacrifice. Others, who prepare food for personal sense enjoyment, verily eat only sin."
    Bhagavad Gita 3:13


    "One who loves Krishna will give Him whatever He wants, and he avoids offering anything which is undesirable or unasked for. Thus, meat, fish and eggs should not be offered to Krishna...Vegetables, grains, fruits, milk and water are the proper foods for human beings and are prescribed by Lord Krishna Himself. Whatever else you eat, can not be offered to Him, since He will not accept it."
    His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada


    "It is the order of the True Lord to the entire body of the Khalsa...that they shall abstain from bhang, tobacco, opium, alcohol and desist from eating meat, fish, onions, nor indulge in theft and lust..."
    Hukum-nama


    "All tremble at Violence; all fear death. Putting oneself in the place of another, one should not kill or cause another to kill."
    Dhammapada 130


    "He who has renounced all Violence towards all living beings, weak or strong, who neither kills nor causes other to kill - him do I call a holy man"
    Dhammapada 405


    "It is s...
  2. SubscriberFMF
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    09 Feb '11 07:16
    Whether or not to eat meat is not a spiritual issue in my belief system. However I do not doubt your sincerity when you tell us that it is an issue absolutely central to yours.
  3. Cape Town
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    09 Feb '11 07:33
    Its interesting how many of your quotes simply use the word 'kill' and not the phrase 'kill animals'. Surely vegetarians kill plants all the time?
    Why is it OK to kill plants, but not OK to kill animals?
  4. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    09 Feb '11 08:24
    Originally posted by vishvahetu
    "Vegetarian food leaves a deep impression on our nature. If the whole world adopts vegetarianism, it can change the destiny of humankind."
    Albert Einstein


    "There is just no reason why animals should be slaughtered to serve as human diet when there are so many substitutes. Man can live without meat."
    The Dalai Lama


    "If man wants freedom why k ...[text shortened]...
    "It is s...
    I'm sold. But I'm not selling it to anyone else.

    And I dont waste food either.

    So I eat a little meat from time to time.
  5. Standard memberDasa
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    09 Feb '11 09:17
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Its interesting how many of your quotes simply use the word 'kill' and not the phrase 'kill animals'. Surely vegetarians kill plants all the time?
    Why is it OK to kill plants, but not OK to kill animals?
    Mammals have almost the same sentient feelings as humans, having them feel pain and fear and suffering and stress, practically on the same level as humans.

    Mammals nurse their offspring and give milk to their young.

    Mammals are warm blooded as humans.

    Mammals exhibit choice and freewill because the consciousness is much more developed than plants.

    There are mammals that serve man as helpers with ploughing, pulling lifting.

    There are mammals that give man wool for the manufacture of clothing.

    Cows are gentle mammals and eat that which is cheap and abundant (grass) and in return we are supplied with milk, cream, ghee, yoghurt, cheese, curd, whey.

    Mammals have recognizable personalities and can assist leading the blind, and can easily become faithful partners in farming and police work.

    There are mammals that can become life long loyal friends with humans.

    The Vedic authority have informed us that killing animals will afford us with negative karma which comes to us in the form of a negative reaction.

    The Vedic authority has informed us that killing animals, shall immediately halt any spiritual advancement that is necessary in raising the consciousness to the transcendental platform of love of God.

    Killing animals is a recognized wrong by the Vedic authority.

    Killing animals is low class and barbaric in its nature.

    Killing animals causes man to become violent to man.

    -----------

    Plants do not suffer or feel pain or stress.

    Plants do not care for their offspring.

    Plants have a very low consciousness and are not aware.

    At the very most, plants can only feel sensation.

    Vedic authority informs us, that the overall function for life, is for plants to be cultivated, harvested and eaten without any wrong being perpetrated, and without any negative consequences.

    The authority of the Vedas, inform us that there is no wrong in the cultivation and harvesting of plants.
  6. SubscriberFMF
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    09 Feb '11 09:25
    Originally posted by vishvahetu
    Mammals have almost the same sentient feelings as humans, having them feel pain and fear and suffering and stress, practically on the same level as humans. Mammals nurse their offspring and give milk to their young. Mammals are warm blooded as humans. Mammals exhibit choice and freewill because the consciousness is much more developed than plants. There ...[text shortened]... g, pulling lifting. There are mammals that give man wool for the manufacture of clothing. [etc.]
    What you fail to mention is that mammals are also food for thousands of millions of humans, some-many-most of whom are sentient, spiritual individuals who are able to think for themselves, weigh their own spiritual insights, and who do not recognize or submit to the "Vedic authority" that happens to underpin and animate your own personal lifestyle choices.
  7. Standard memberDasa
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    09 Feb '11 09:30
    Originally posted by FMF
    Whether or not to eat meat is not a spiritual issue in my belief system. However I do not doubt your sincerity when you tell us that it is an issue absolutely central to yours.
    Your comment is in error because knowing it or not, eating meat directly affects a person spiritual consciousness by stunting the development of higher spiritual realization.

    And the issue of eating meat is not an issue only for Vishva, but it is an issue for every person who partakes, because meat eating whether you like it or not shall deliver to you, without fail your karma.

    No person can escape their personal karma, just like no person can refuse to accept old age and death when it arrives......you cannot deny this..
  8. SubscriberFMF
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    09 Feb '11 09:40
    Originally posted by vishvahetu
    Your comment is in error because knowing it or not, eating meat directly affects a person spiritual consciousness by stunting the development of higher spiritual realization.
    I can see that you sincerely believe that my opinion is "in error" and that your opinion is not "in error".

    However the terminology "error", "higher", "consciousness " and "realization" and so on, can only really be applied to others who recognize or submit to the "Vedic authority", and can therefore be faulted or congratulated on their memorization of doctrine, as you yourself can and do.

    Seeing as your terms of reference are so specific and seemingly prescriptive(not to mention alienating), your accusations of me being "in error" are neither relevant nor credible to me.
  9. Standard memberDasa
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    09 Feb '11 09:431 edit
    Originally posted by FMF
    What you fail to mention is that mammals are also food for thousands of millions of humans, some-many-most of whom are sentient, spiritual individuals who are able to think for themselves, weigh their own spiritual insights, and who do not recognize or submit to the "Vedic authority" that happens to underpin and animate your own personal lifestyle choices.
    If you continue to speculate whimsically, you shall be in error every time.

    Because you can weigh things for yourself and think for yourself, but you can never turn a wrong into a right by thinking so ...that would be foolish..

    The Vedic teachings are the authority, and they are not up for debate, just like the law of the road is not up for debate, no matter how much you think for your self and weigh things up, it will always be wrong to go against a red light.

    Likewise the law of life is clear, and meat eating and animal slaughter (where there is a choice) is always sinful and in error.
  10. Standard memberDasa
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    09 Feb '11 09:49
    Originally posted by FMF
    I can see that you sincerely believe that my opinion is "in error" and that your opinion is not "in error".

    However the terminology "error", "higher", "consciousness " and "realization" and so on, can only really be applied to others who recognize or submit to the "Vedic authority", and can therefore be faulted or congratulated on their memorization of doctr ...[text shortened]... your accusations of me being "in error" are neither relevant nor credible to me.
    That is because you are a dishonest person, and while you remain dishonest, you shall have all your tailor made rules created by yourself, to turn wrongs into right.

    But they will only be right in your dishonest mind, and the law of the land shall reward you your just karma, no matter how you twist the truth.

    You can never turn error into to truth by thinking so.
  11. SubscriberFMF
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    09 Feb '11 09:51
    Originally posted by vishvahetu
    The Vedic teachings are the authority, and they are not up for debate, just like the law of the road is not up for debate, no matter how much you think for your self and weigh things up, it will always be wrong to go against a red light.
    Your analogy is not relevant as I do not recognize or submit to "Vedic authority" or "Vedic teachings", although I accept that you do, and do not doubt your doctrinal certainty and sincerity. I am not a religionist, vishvahetu. I have found that religion - yours included - is a barrier to my personal search for spiritual insight.
  12. Standard memberDasa
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    09 Feb '11 10:11
    Originally posted by FMF
    Your analogy is not relevant as I do not recognize or submit to "Vedic authority" or "Vedic teachings", although I accept that you do, and do not doubt your doctrinal certainty and sincerity. I am not a religionist, vishvahetu. I have found that religion - yours included - is a barrier to my personal search for spiritual insight.
    Then what is your spiritual message for all to hear.

    You have been here for so long and have not presented anything, but you reject everything.

    Present something.

    Any fool can reject...its easy you just say no.

    This is your game playing...

    You say you do not accept Veda, but how can you reject Veda if you know not what it is.

    This is your dishonesty, you reject that which.... you know not

    Everyone in this forum has put forward their little piece of truth according to them.

    So and so is a Christian....and the other person believes evolution....and the other is a Buddhist.....,so what are you putting forward, that you can reject Veda?

    Or are you rejecting because you are simply dishonest and really have no stand,... but are really only that serial debater that I have exposed.

    If you turn out to be that serial debtor, then today shall be the last minutes I shall waste with you.
  13. Cape Town
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    09 Feb '11 10:35
    Originally posted by vishvahetu
    Mammals have almost the same sentient feelings as humans, having them feel pain and fear and suffering and stress, practically on the same level as humans.

    The authority of the Vedas, inform us that there is no wrong in the cultivation and harvesting of plants.
    So you essentially have two reasons (you are just not very good at summarizing):
    1. Mammals feel pain and suffering.
    2. The Vedas say don't kill animals.

    So what about insects, fish and birds? Where do they come in 1. and 2.?
  14. Standard memberDasa
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    09 Feb '11 10:43
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    So you essentially have two reasons (you are just not very good at summarizing):
    1. Mammals feel pain and suffering.
    2. The Vedas say don't kill animals.

    So what about insects, fish and birds? Where do they come in 1. and 2.?
    They are lower on the scale and feel diffident degrees of pain and suffering.

    Look there's one golden rule....if it lives, do not cause it to suffer.
  15. Cape Town
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    09 Feb '11 11:411 edit
    Originally posted by vishvahetu
    They are lower on the scale and feel diffident degrees of pain and suffering.

    Look there's one golden rule....if it lives, do not cause it to suffer.
    So eggs (which cannot suffer) can be eaten - yet one of your quotes seems to be against that.
    And under the heading 'cause it to suffer' is milk. Most milk is produced by killing the calf of a cow, so by drinking milk you are causing suffering and death of an animal - yet milk is acceptable in one of your quotes.

    Another very important question is if we are morally obligated not to cause suffering then are we equally morally obligated not to allow suffering through inaction?
    Should we for example sterilize all carnivores so as to prevent their offspring from causing suffering and death?

    Can my cat eat meat or must he go vegetarian too?
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