I dont accept their fabrications.

Originally posted by Dasa
Why should I be attacked for simply presenting the truth.

Any value your message has is lost in its presentation. Why you can't recognize this is beyond me. The ideas you offer as Truth are subjective at best. You can't and, for that matter, don't even try to prove your statements. This makes yo either a fool or a jackoff. I'll leave it to you to tell me which.

Originally posted by Agerg
Aye - I hate it when it wants to do things like swap 'colour' for 'color' and sticking 'z's all over the shop.

In case you didn't know, MS word (and most other programs with dictionaries) can use a UK dictionary if necessary. Yes I know the US dictionary is installed by default on most things, but thats the price we pay for having the software developed there, and our language being similar enough that not many people demand something different.

In 10 - 20 years time the default will be Chinese - so I am learning Chinese in preparation. (Already most equipment comes with instructions in Chinese and English that has clearly been translated from the Chinese by software.

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
Any value your message has is lost in its presentation. Why you can't recognize this is beyond me. The ideas you offer as Truth are subjective at best. You can't and, for that matter, don't even try to prove your statements. This makes yo either a fool or a jackoff. I'll leave it to you to tell me which.

When persons whimsically reject how does any proof help, and when I say dead bodies dont jump out of the grave I rely on peoples truthful heart to determine what is so.

Have you noticed most just reject automatically.

When they notice that Dasa has made post they just go into automatic mode and reject whimsically and then find themselves defending falsity for no reason.

I say the cosmos cannot exist without intelligence at its foundation which is perfectly reasonable and I dont even have to involve Vedanta....but the automatic response goes into over drive and they reject that without proof that it is otherwise.

Originally posted by twhitehead
In case you didn't know, MS word (and most other programs with dictionaries) can use a UK dictionary if necessary. Yes I know the US dictionary is installed by default on most things, but thats the price we pay for having the software developed there, and our language being similar enough that not many people demand something different.

In 10 - 20 year ...[text shortened]... tructions in Chinese and English that has clearly been translated from the Chinese by software.

Yeah, learning chinese or any 'derivative' of that language seems a good idea; haven't the time yet though - my brother is gaining fluency in japanese though - most impressive!

As for MS Word, to tell the truth I've come to hate the program with each shiny and sparkly reincarnation (whereby I spend too long trying to figure out where all the useful stuff is hidden) and so haven't bothered to get myself a copy of it (I only use it if I'm in a hurry in one of the uni computer clusters). I have a setup file for open office somewhere on my computer but in general if I have to do any hefty typing I'll do it either in Wordpad or TeXnicCenter. As for the latter I need to get round to changing the default dictionary for that - do you use it by any chance?

Originally posted by finnegan
Just a few of the false premises in this argument.

Big Bang theory is not a problem for many Christians and does not prevent many scientists practising their Christian faith. It is only a problem for people within certain evangelical sects who demand the literal truth of the Bible, something that other Christians do not see as even important let alone v d struggled for years before he was forced BY EVIDENCE to abandon it. That applies generally.

Excellent post!!!
You get straight to the point of what is just so wrong with his claim.
I think you have hit it on the nail there.

I like to add that there was a time when MOST scientists were theist. So why would they do science just in order try and disprove their own faith!!!? -that just makes absolutely no sense at all! Why would they want to do that?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Well it certainly never managed to expand your vocabulary beyond expletives nor apparently improve your spelling. I guess looking at the pictures must have been good enough for you.

Ah, there's the Robbie we know and love!

Sometimes you assert that you are above squbbling over non-spiritual posts and personal attacks. And noted, you have demonstrated this discipline, AT TIMES.
It only takes a little nudge from Agerg to put you right back on the " put 'em down in a subtle non-abusive" type guy.
Admit it Rob: Your ego suffers just as much as the athiests and the Vedantists (hahaha), etc. Right?
You are aware that the spiritual way is not overly concerned with materialism, but I have not come across any extrapolations on this idea. Just that "you are materialistic" type accusations, without much back up, (uless its some sort of circular reasoning derived from your sect)

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
Excellent post!!!
You get straight to the point of what is just so wrong with his claim.
I think you have hit it on the nail there.

I like to add that there was a time when MOST scientists were theist. So why would they do science just in order try and disprove their own faith!!!? -that just makes absolutely no sense at all! Why would they want to do that?

If Dasa actually read that post, I doubt he will even acknowledge it, being unable to refute it with his Vedic greatness.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Ah, there's the Robbie we know and love!

Sometimes you assert that you are above squbbling over non-spiritual posts and personal attacks. And noted, you have demonstrated this discipline, AT TIMES.
It only takes a little nudge from Agerg to put you right back on the " put 'em down in a subtle non-abusive" type guy.
Admit it Rob: Your ego suffers , without much back up, (uless its some sort of circular reasoning derived from your sect)

(James 3:8-10) . . .But the tongue, not one of mankind can get it tamed. An unruly injurious thing, it is full of death-dealing poison. With it we bless Jehovah, even the Father, and yet with it we curse men who have come into existence “in the likeness of God.”  Out of the same mouth come forth blessing and cursing.. . .

First of all, no one loves me on this forum, except beetle. I am considered to be the most annoying of fellows, a pestilent seed picker. I share no common affinity with the Christians for I regard their form of worship as a bastardisation and i share no common affinity with the materialists whom i consider absolutely deviod of spirituality.

Agers cannot tell the difference between making fun of someone and getting personal, its a trait of his countrymen and culture. They are far too serious and have not learned to laugh at themselves in the same way that the Scots and the Aussies have. Small things become gigantic and gigantic things are made to be frivolous. I wish him no malice or ill intent, clearly he needs to develop egalitarian sensibility. He has continually slandered me and used profanity. If I were to meet him face to face i doubt I would last a half hour in his company.

I fully admit that i can be riled as much as anyone, am i after all not a man, the same as you?

By materialist i mean those who have no reality other than that which is material. If they have a spirituality then let them express it, as far as i can discern they are merely intent to destroy and tear down the spirituality of others. This has been my experience on this forum and elsewhere. If you can point to any reference which demonstrates the contrary, then be my guest.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
(James 3:8-10) . . .But the tongue, not one of mankind can get it tamed. An unruly injurious thing, it is full of death-dealing poison. With it we bless Jehovah, even the Father, and yet with it we curse men who have come into existence “in the likeness of God.”  Out of the same mouth come forth blessing and cursing.. . .

First of all, no one love ...[text shortened]... elsewhere. If you can point to any reference which demonstrates the contrary, then be my guest.

I don't see a poorly veiled attack against someone's education level "making fun", especially given the current tension between us. Had you told me I didn't need the expletive I would have conceded you were correct and apologised...but to focus on a damned typo and suggest (not too subtly) my education level is correlated mostly with the pretty pictures I've seen!???

That's just ridiculous. Exactly where have I "continually" slandered you, and "continually" used profanity btw? (please be specific)

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
(James 3:8-10) . . .But the tongue, not one of mankind can get it tamed. An unruly injurious thing, it is full of death-dealing poison. With it we bless Jehovah, even the Father, and yet with it we curse men who have come into existence “in the likeness of God.”  Out of the same mouth come forth blessing and cursing.. . .


By materialist i mean t ...[text shortened]... elsewhere. If you can point to any reference which demonstrates the contrary, then be my guest.

Your initial point is well made. Without doubt many people with Rationalist or scientific values specifically enjoy engaging in debate with the more fundamentalist and literalist adherents of Caissa. They are fair game and argue their corner noisily.

Many argue from a position of real hostility to religious belief systems, regarding them as socially destructive. There is no question that this leads to very heated exchanges. This has been my position quite often.

In the process, I suggest that those with any wit are prepared to move beyond the Punch and Judy headbanging and explore for something more productive. This is not easy to achieve. The religious adherents do show a tendency to blithly mouth their scripts without considering how that might sound to anyone else. More importantly, it is impossible to pin down which religious belief systems are being defended at any time and a tendency to simply go straight to the black and white caricatures on either side. Conversely, the variations of religious experience are simply not recognized by the secularists. This may be insuperable on this forum. I suspect it is.

Setting out a "materialist" value system that might answer your request for "spirituality" is perfectly possible, but not a project many contributors seem committed to. However it is very odd to say that the definition of a materialist is to have no reality other than what is material. Taking only one example, the root of modern cosmology since Newton is its dependence on mathematics, which Roger Penrose (for example) has described as supporting Plato's notion of the Ideal Form. He is impressed at the way mathematicians working in purely abstract fields arrive at concepts (including very specific formulae) which turn out, much later and in very different circumstances, to account for unexpected observations in physics and astronomy. Stuff happens, he says, which we would never know about and never observe if we had not previously devised a mathematical language to describe it.

I think that serious materialists want to tear down the spirituality of others because they feel this so called spirituality blinds them to what is really amazing in the natural world.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
One of the most astonishing characteristics of scientists is that some of them are plain, old-fashioned bigots. Their zeal has a fanatical, egocentric quality characterized by disdain and intolerance for anyone or any value not associated with a special area of intellectual activity.

Philip H. Abelson, "Bigotry in Science," Science, Vol. 144, April 24, 1964, p. 373.

Here we see a claim about ALL SCIENTISTS based on an observation about SOME SCIENTISTS.

One of the most astonishing characteristics of scientists is that some of them...

Originally posted by Dasa
I dont know why you have commented as such, because you are fully aware that I have clearly stated, that I am not talking about technologies science.

I have stated this a few times.

I am talking about the sciences that involve themselves in telling, to the public how life is existing and came about....you know this.

Here we see the astonishing claim that the science applied in technology is not the same science applied in discussing how life came about. Gravity works for building a bridge and for building a star without any adjustment to the formula.

Originally posted by finnegan
Here we see a claim about ALL SCIENTISTS based on an observation about SOME SCIENTISTS.

One of the most astonishing characteristics of scientists is that [b]some of them...[/b]

Yes. Could just as easily replace scientists with people in that statement.

Originally posted by lausey
Yes. Could just as easily replace scientists with people in that statement.

The quote is from 1964, and the majority of bigots in question were probably Christian. So we can put 'Christian' in place of 'scientists'.

Originally posted by finnegan
Your initial point is well made. Without doubt many people with Rationalist or scientific values specifically enjoy engaging in debate with the more fundamentalist and literalist adherents of Caissa. They are fair game and argue their corner noisily.

Many argue from a position of real hostility to religious belief systems, regarding them as socially des ...[text shortened]... is so called spirituality blinds them to what is really amazing in the natural world.

Sláinte

This is as good a point as i have read on these forums and very insightful. Thanks Finnegan.

I do not claim that a belief system cannot be compiled from those who are purely materialists, many indeed have turned to eastern religions and sought a spirituality through meditation and self knowledge which does not necessitate the acceptance of a divine entity, that is fine. They may indeed promulgate the wisdom that they have found for the benefit of all.

However there exists the militant materialist, who not content to derive his own satisfaction from developing his own spirituality must seek to denigrate that of others. Usually it takes the form of science pitted against religious belief. Isaac Newton is a great example, for he was both a scientist and a deeply religious man, indeed, he wrote more words with regard to his quest for religious truth than he did for his scientific endeavours. So what if a theist wishes to draw inferences for his religious belief from an observation of the natural world? Is there not order, harmony, irreducible complex systems at play. Is his sense of wonderment any less than those whose mathematical formulae you mention lead them to similar paths of delight whether its the cosmos or the microcosmic world they are observing.

Again i have stated that I really do believe that materialism is corrosive and quite insidious, we find it in all sorts of unexpected places, from political pressure groups advocating the acceptance of their morality, to criminality where it may even be construed that is it really the case that a person is culpable if they are merely the product of blind chance and a series of electro-chemical reactions. What if the functioning of those systems are prone to aberration etc etc.

Just to illustrate this point, i had a curious experience on another forum where i was advocating marriage. Someone piped up that it was not in the best interests to be married , that indeed animals are polygamous and we as humans are by nature the very same. (a belief directly traceable to materialism). When it was pointed out that there are certain practices which when viewed from a human perspective, while being observed in the animal kingdom prove to be disastrous for humans, as in the case of sexual promiscuity it was utterly lost on them. Had they really not considered unwanted pregnancies, the break up of families, abortions and the emotional and psychological scars which may ensue, sexual transmitted diseases etc. When i asked in what capacity was sexual promiscuity to be preferred over marriage they had no answer, utterly deviod and bereft, a vacuous region to be sure, and the obligatory insults naturally followed.

I highlight this instance which seems to me to indicate the real chasm of difference in which the moral and spiritual 'psyche' of the materialist ( i cannot think of a better term at the moment) has not proven itself in any way to be better than the Christian model, indeed, it is in every instance, utterly inferior and worse than that, it is corrosive and destructive.

We have seen it on this forum, where so called 'situation ethics', 'lying' in plain English, did not prove itself to be superior to telling the truth or withholding information to whom it was deemed not trustworthy to be party to that information. Marriage is another instance where it has not been proven that promiscuity is to be preferred over marital fidelity. We can even talk about the present economic crisis effecting your own country which may have arisen as a consequence of materialism where the new cathedrals are home improvement shops and shopping is meant to be, spiritually, 'therapeutic'.

Thus the scene is set, we have an established morality and a truly sublime model in the Christ, it is like a fortress to us, the materialists must load the cannons and try to breech the walls in order to establish their own vision.

Sláinte robbie