I don't understand the sacrifice.....

i think its more symbolic than anything

Originally posted by josephw
Think objectively for a minute. What's wrong with you? Do you have problems? Do you look for answers but can't find any? Do you get into arguments with people over misunderstandings? Does your back hurt when you get out of bed in the morning?

You get my drift. You're not perfect. We're all in the same boat together.

God is perfect. He has no problems. ...[text shortened]... be.

Quit being confused about it. I just told you how it is. Believe it or not! 😉

Right. We are not perfect, and we are all sinners. As hard as we may try, we will never be able to be completely free of sin. Do you really think the death penalty (or eternal torture, as others would claim) is a just punishment for someone who does the very best xe can? That's a very strange interpretation of "justice".

Originally posted by 1WhiteKnight
Apparently the bible says the god sacrificed his son for mankind, as do many Christians I seem to come across. So I think the reason was to forgive mankind for its sins, my problem is what would have happened if he hadn’t have been sacrificial? Would we all have just dropped dead?

I think the concept can be illustrated as Christ was held by Pilate to be executed. Then, as the Jewish custome demanded, one prisoner was to be chosen by the people to be released. The people elected the guilty Barnabas over the innocent Christ and Christ went to the cross in his stead. You see, mankind has a price to pay because we are a fallen race just like Barnabas had a price to pay for his crimes. God told Adam that sin = death. It is simply a spiritual law. You see, sin and death gained dominion over mankind because man sinned and became a fallen race. However, death had no such right to take the life of Christ because he had no sin. Therefore, death now owed Christ a debt, so to speak, because his life was taken wrongfully. So now through Christ and what is owed to him, we can overcome death!! That is the good news of the gospel!!

A forshadowing of this can be seen in the Old Testament as men were commanded to sacrifice animals to God as an atonement for their sin. The concept was that the life is in the blood, however, sin brings death. Therefore, to atone for the sin that brings death the life blood of the animal was shed to cover such sin. It may not make much sense to us but it seems to have made much sense to God and how he sees sin. In a way, you are trading a life for a life because sin demands death but our life force lies in the blood.

Originally posted by ahosyney
[b]God says the penalty for sin is death.

Where did GOD say that?[/b]

Romans 6:23

Originally posted by ahosyney
[b]God says the penalty for sin is death.

Where did GOD say that?[/b]

Genesis 2:17

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
But Jesus says that one must repent one's sins to enter heaven. How can it be 'a done deal' for you? By your own admission, you aren't yet free of sin.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way.

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who doe ...[text shortened]... ks?' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'

ThinkOfOne, I assure you I am a saved man. Christ died for me, to pay my sins debt. I am free from the penalty for sin, but none of us is free from the effects of sin. Do you understand the difference?

You better read Ephesians 4:8 my friend.

And as far as the verses you quoted, if you have a problem reconciling them with the free gift of eternal life given by grace through faith I'll be glad to explain why, but not here. It's too complicated, and would take me all night. I gotta get to bed. Message me on the side if you want to.

Originally posted by Nordlys
Right. We are not perfect, and we are all sinners. As hard as we may try, we will never be able to be completely free of sin. Do you really think the death penalty (or eternal torture, as others would claim) is a just punishment for someone who does the very best xe can? That's a very strange interpretation of "justice".

If a man dies without excepting Christ as his saviour, and his sins are not forgiven, How can he come into the presence of a holy God?

Originally posted by whodey
Genesis 2:17

Originally posted by josephw
Romans 6:23

Yes it say , but it is not GOD who is speaking here. Paul who is speaking.

Originally posted by whodey
Genesis 2:17

This doesn't say it. It is a warning from GOD to Adam , it doesn't give the same meaning Paul was talking about. Don't you agree with me?. Besides, if you read Ezekiel 18 (I posted the complete chapter here) you will find what GOD ment by this.

Originally posted by ahosyney
Originally posted by josephw
[b]Romans 6:23

Yes it say , but it is not GOD who is speaking here. Paul who is speaking.

Originally posted by whodey
Genesis 2:17

This doesn't say it. It is a warning from GOD to Adam , it doesn't give the same meaning Paul was talking about. Don't you agree with me?. Besides, if you read Ezekiel 18 (I posted the complete chapter here) you will find what GOD ment by this.[/b]

I think we can both agree that Ezekiel 18 is talking about spiritual death and not physical death. So do you think that Adam and Eve would have died physically had they not partook of the fruit? Why would a God of life create life subject to death? Your theology demands that God created us to die. Why?

Also, I am not sure that anyone in the Bible can claim that they have lived a "sinless" life. Even righteous men such as Moses sinned.

Originally posted by whodey
I think we can both agree that Ezekiel 18 is talking about spiritual death and not physical death. So do you think that Adam and Eve would have died physically had they not partook of the fruit? Why would a God of life create life subject to death? Your theology demands that God created us to die. Why?

Also, I am not sure that anyone in the Bible can claim that they have lived a "sinless" life. Even righteous men such as Moses sinned.

Ok my friend lets make it clear:

In Romans Paul Say:
(KJV)(6-23)(For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.)

When Paul say that it gives me the feeling that it is will know law. So I expect to find it in the OLD Tastement. I didn't read it all, but so far the only reference to this is the one you got:

(KJV)(Genesis)(Gn-2-17)(But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.)

This verse doesn't give me the general law Paul was talking about. It seems to me it is talking about a particular situation. But lets assume it is the general law. Here we have a problem, Adam Didn't die in the same day as the verse say. He lived for 900 more. So there is 3 explanations:

a. GOD was not true. Which me and you will not accept.
b. GOD was talking about spritual Death. The answer for this in Ezekiel 18. This explanation makes more sense for me.

c. GOD was talking about Physical death. And the day of GOD equals 1000 years and so Adam died on time. This require the assumption that GOD day is actually 1000 years. Or , GOD waited for 900 years for some reason to achive the punishment of death, which somehow leads us to option (a).

This explanation leads to more coplicated results. And also there is no reason I should understand as Physical death. give me one if yo have?

-----------------------------
So in summary , Gen 2.17 , doesn't generalize the plenty of sin as Paul Did. And what I understand from it that it is talking about spritual death, which is resolved clearly in Ezekiel 18.

If you can find another verse that give a similar meaning to Roman 6.23 then the problem is solved.
----------------------------

Why would a God of life create life subject to death? Your theology demands that God created us to die. Why?

Is death in your theology termination of human life? I don't think so. I think you belive that death is just a transition from the earthy life to the eternal life. And that is what I belive. So the physical death is simply a transition, not a termination of life. Our spirits will always be a live.

GOD created us to live on earth , which is a transition period. So death on earth is not an end of life, it is the end of earthy life.

I hope I was clear enough..

Originally posted by 1WhiteKnight
and how does killing your son make that possible?

God told Adam not to eat of a certain fruit. Adam of course ate the fruit, which was not a big surprise to anyone. God then said Aha! Because you ate of this fruit, I will damn the entire human race. Later He said well maybe I will give you a chance. If you can follow these ten laws, I will forgive all of you. God of course knew we could not follow the ten rules. Once no one was able to do it, God said Aha! I knew you could not do it. Here let me show you how it is done. I will sacrifice my own son to pay for your sins, and then now we will be even. So He kills His son and then in three days he raises him up again. Now finally 6000 years later the penalty for eating that %#@&ing fruit is paid off. It is very clear and makes perfect sense!

Any questions?

Originally posted by ahosyney
(KJV)(Genesis)(Gn-2-17)(But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.)

There is another way to interpret this scripture. It is like telling you that the day you decide to rob a bank, you shall surly go to prison. Does this mean you will go to prison that very day or am I telling you that the day you decide to commit the crime is the day that judgment will inevitably fall upon you.

Originally posted by josephw
ThinkOfOne, I assure you I am a saved man. Christ died for me, to pay my sins debt. I am free from the penalty for sin, but none of us is free from the effects of sin. Do you understand the difference?

You better read Ephesians 4:8 my friend.

And as far as the verses you quoted, if you have a problem reconciling them with the free gift of eternal life cated, and would take me all night. I gotta get to bed. Message me on the side if you want to.

It's disconcerting how few Christians actually follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. Where's the love?

Luke 6:46-49
Why do you call me,'Lord, Lord,' and don't do the things which I say?

Everyone who comes to me, and hears my words, and does them, I will show you who he is like.

He is like a man building a house, who dug and went deep, and laid a foundation on the rock. When a flood arose, the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because it was founded on the rock.

But he who hears, and doesn't do, is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great.

Originally posted by josephw
If a man dies without excepting Christ as his saviour, and his sins are not forgiven, How can he come into the presence of a holy God?

If the person did everything xe could to avoid sinning, why would xe need forgiveness?

Originally posted by whodey
There is another way to interpret this scripture. It is like telling you that the day you decide to rob a bank, you shall surly go to prison. Does this mean you will go to prison that very day or am I telling you that the day you decide to commit the crime is the day that judgment will inevitably fall upon you.

It does say 'in the day you shall eat it,' you know. If you said, 'If you should rob a bank, in the
day you shall go to prison,' and didn't send that person to prison after robbing the bank, then you
would in fact be inaccurate.

Don't you find that you creatively interpret Scripture whenever a seeming contradiction comes up but
insist upon literal readings when other people interpret Scripture differently from you?

Nemesio