"I love Jesus" , but ...

Originally posted by Rajk999
That is correct. If you understand the teachings of Christ and Im pretty sure you do, and you compare that with what is the Christians' interpretation of that doctrine, you can see how worlds apart both doctrines are. The true way of Christ is indeed narrow.

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

(Isaiah 64:6 KJV)

When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

(Ezekiel 33:13 KJV)

The apostle Paul wrote that the law reveals our sin and how unrighteous we all are before God. However, we that believe and put our faith and trust in Christ are saved by the grace of God through the righteousness of Christ. Then we are to do good works as our acceptable service.

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

(Romans 3:19-31 KJV)

For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

(Titus 3:3-7 KJV)

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

(Ephesians 2:4-10 NKJV)

The apostle James makes it clear that that it is important for us to do good works and perform good deeds to help others as proof of our faith. He states that he shows his faith through his works. He also says the following:

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

(James 2:21-26 KJV)

By combining the ideas we see that we cannot do anything to save ourselves, but our salvation comes when we believe and put faith and trust in Christ and accept God’s grace. Then we will do good works because we can appreciate God's love for us and will also love God in return. Our good deeds and righteous acts do not produce salvation but are evidence of our salvation.

Originally posted by RJHinds

[b]But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

(Isaiah 64:6 KJV)

[quote] When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his right ...[text shortened]... n. Our good deeds and righteous acts do not produce salvation but are evidence of our salvation.

Ok .. well here is a very simple question.

How much of what you just said did Christ say?

Some? none ?

More like none. Why do you think that is?

Take a crack at answering why the doctrine of Christ as it pertains to obtaining eternal life is so different from that which you just stated.

I will give my opinion after I see yours.

Remember in your answer that Christ is the way, the truth and the life.
Eternal life is all about Christ.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Ok .. well here is a very simple question.

How much of what you just said did Christ say?

Some? none ?

More like none. Why do you think that is?

Take a crack at answering why the doctrine of Christ as it pertains to obtaining eternal life is so different from that which you just stated.

I will give my opinion after I see yours.

Remember ...[text shortened]... your answer that Christ is the way, the truth and the life.
Eternal life is all about Christ.

What is so different about what Christ said and what the apostles said?

And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

(Mark 10:18 NASB)

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

(John 3:16 NASB)

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

(John 3:36 NASB)

"I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."

(John 5:51 NASB)

"For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.

(John 6:55 NASB)

Any difference in teaching is a matter of emphasis.

Originally posted by RJHinds
What is so different about what Christ said and what the apostles said?

And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

(Mark 10:18 NASB)

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

(John 3:16 ...[text shortened]... is true drink. [/quote]
(John 6:55 NASB)

Any difference in teaching is a matter of emphasis.

You did not answer the question. I will have to answer it tomorrow.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You did not answer the question. I will have to answer it tomorrow.

They are saying basically the same thing in different ways. Jesus said, "No one is good except God alone." That is basically the same as what Paul said with "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

Jesus said, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." That is basically the same as what Paul said. Paul just said it in a different way by mentioning grace and faith.

Jesus said, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

James said it this way, "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

I could go on and on, however, there is no point if you refuse to believe the truth.

I agree that if you love Jesus you will want to obey his commandments ...But if we are as filthy rags and all have sinned no amount of works can save us ....except that Christ indeed died for us and this so that we could be free to do His works ...commands

Manny

PS It's faith vs works however the two go together and are two sides of the same coin ...One can show their faith by their works and one will work because of their faith

James wrote to warn us of an idle faith that professes but does nothing to actually help ......What good is it if I say " Go and be warm and fed " but do not help and supply the food or clothing (acting out what one believes ) Do not assume that all Christians here do nothing and just run their mouths of course I see the flip-side with characters like Olsteen who preach happiness and wealth and self absorbed teachings but no Jesus in His message ....Western Christianity has fallen off it's rocker

Manny

Originally posted by menace71
James wrote to warn us of an idle faith that professes but does nothing to actually help ......What good is it if I say " Go and be warm and fed " but do not help and supply the food or clothing (acting out what one believes ) Do not assume that all Christians here do nothing and just run their mouths of course I see the flip-side with characters like Olste ...[text shortened]... chings but no Jesus in His message ....Western Christianity has fallen off it's rocker

Manny

Do you think there ever was a time where God didn't have a people upon
the planet? Christ is Lord of all yes, but He is without a doubt Lord of His
Church and His Church is filled with over comers in Him. Don't look at all the
man made crap and assume that is the body of Christ, His body of believers
who He has given His Spirit too are doing just fine and always have been
since they are lead by the Spirit doing the works He has for them.
Kelly

Originally posted by menace71
James wrote to warn us of an idle faith that professes but does nothing to actually help ......What good is it if I say " Go and be warm and fed " but do not help and supply the food or clothing (acting out what one believes ) Do not assume that all Christians here do nothing and just run their mouths of course I see the flip-side with characters like Olste ...[text shortened]... chings but no Jesus in His message ....Western Christianity has fallen off it's rocker

Manny

I understand all this rhetoric about works and "mouthing words", etc. The main point however, is that Rajk is involved in a cult of sorts. He thinks that a born again Christian will lose his salvation if he does not continue in "good works".
He does not think that the atonement of Christ on the cross was to pay for the believers sins, past, present and future. He uses verses in Hebrews out of context and contradicts other clear verses like...
Rom 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable
NKJV

Heb 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

Heb 10:16-18
"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," 17 then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
NKJV

Eph 1:13-14
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
NKJV

My point is, my earthly father never "disowned" me, no matter what I did!
God is greater than my earthly father and promises to never leave me nor forsake me.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I understand all this rhetoric about works and "mouthing words", etc. The main point however, is that Rajk is involved in a cult of sorts. He thinks that a born again Christian will lose his salvation if he does not continue in "good works".
He does not think that the atonement of Christ on the cross was to pay for the believers sins, past, present and ...[text shortened]... id!
God is greater than my earthly father and promises to [b]never leave me nor forsake me.[/b]

FAITH without works is DEAD

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
FAITH without works is DEAD

I agree, but it has nothing to do with the subject.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
FAITH without works is DEAD

Mark 16:15-18
And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
NKJV

Are you doing ALL of these commandments? No? Well then, you are condemned my friend, as well as Rajk...🙂

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
FAITH without works is DEAD

WORKS without FAITH is DEAD, too.

But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

(Hebrews 11:6 NKJV)

And from Jesus:

Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

(John 8:24 NKJV)

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

(John 3:16 NASB)

Originally posted by RJHinds
WORKS without FAITH is DEAD, too.

But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

(Hebrews 11:6 NKJV)

And from Jesus:

Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, y ...[text shortened]... that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

(John 3:16 NASB)

I find it quite odd that there are some here who really want to ignore Jesus
and claim God must accept them by their works. Who really believes they
can stand before God righteous by the things they have done? At best all
they have done are just those things that they should have done, and what
makes that so special that their sins should be forgiven for just doing the
minimum, just that which we should all be doing all the time anyway?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I find it quite odd that there are some here who really want to ignore Jesus
and claim God must accept them by their works. Who really believes they
can stand before God righteous by the things they have done? At best all
they have done are just those things that they should have done, and what
makes that so special that their sins should be forgiven for just doing the
minimum, just that which we should all be doing all the time anyway?
Kelly

The grace of God and our belief, faith, and trust in Christ must come before our good works can be pleasing to God. That is the way I understand it. How about you?

Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."