I was always taught that....

Originally posted by Halitose
The technicallity here is that one has to accept the free gift for it to be valid.

i'm not sure what you mean by 'valid'. how is a 'free gift' that is declined not 'valid'? it would then just simply be a free gift that was declined. the offerer and the decliner would then part ways amicably. i really don't get the 'free gift' analogy at all.

Originally posted by LemonJello
i'm not sure what you mean by 'valid'. how is a 'free gift' that is declined not 'valid'? it would then just simply be a free gift that was declined. the offerer and the decliner would then part ways amicably. i really don't get the 'free gift' analogy at all.

I suppose the 'free gift' analogy is valid for those who accept it. I suppose those that decline it would call it a 'missed oppertunity'.

Originally posted by Coconut
Not automatically, no. We are all sinners. Nobody deserves to be in the presense of the Lord. That is why he sent his free gift of his son, and can offer us grace by accepting the gift. In God's eyes, you are no better than the sinners you mentioned in your post.

See this is one of my biggest problems with chritianity. How can you claim that Ghandi and Mother Terresa and Martin Luther King Jr. are just as bad as Charles Manson, Hitler, and Mengela. It doesn't make sense, people shouldn't just automatically be sinners or if so, there should be levels to it. Hitler could have asked forgiveness and would have been as good as Ghandi. Of course since I don't believe in heaven and am undoubtly a sinner in your eyes, I don't much care, I just can't stand the illogic.

Originally posted by dj2becker
I suppose the 'free gift' analogy is valid for those who accept it. I suppose those that decline it would call it a 'missed oppertunity'.

It's not missed until they are dead.

Originally posted by dj2becker
I suppose the 'free gift' analogy is valid for those who accept it. I suppose those that decline it would call it a 'missed oppertunity'.

so you think that eternal torture is a just punishment for missing an opportunity? i think you need to warm up to the idea that it is neither a free gift nor a missed opportunity. it is more like an ultimatum that relies on threat of harsh consequence for declining non-negotiable terms of agreement. your god is like the godfather in that it is an offer you can't refuse, so to speak.

Originally posted by Coconut
It's not missed until they are dead.

So the gift is no use until you're dead?

Originally posted by LemonJello
so you think that eternal torture is a just punishment for missing an opportunity? i think you need to warm up to the idea that it is neither a free gift nor a missed opportunity. it is more like an ultimatum that relies on threat of harsh consequence for declining non-negotiable terms of agreement. your god is like the godfather in that it is an offer you can't refuse, so to speak.

"The Godfather". Heh.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
So the gift is no use until you're dead?

Nice scam ! I'm going to try that next time I have to buy a wedding present .

I was always taught that if you were good all your life you go to heaven.
If you were bad, you end up in an empty garage in Buffalo....

Then I learned that all men are born bad. That is, they are born with a sinful nature, due to Adam's sin. Now I meet people that seem like nice good people, and I wonder, how come? They aren't even Christian!

Then I learned, that all men have the "potential" to do evil...because they have a heart problem. That is, as Jesus said, evil proceeds from the heart.

Then I saw this in the bible....
Jer 17:9
9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?
(NKJ)

Some versions say "incurably sick"....the heart is incurably sick and it cannot be fixed.....

So....what this gift entails, with a bunch of other things, is a "new heart".
People that accept or receive the free gift of Jesus Christ get a new heart, because the old heart is beyond repair...

Then I learn that even with this new heart, we still have that "sinful nature", and then it becomes a battle in the mind, between the two natures....Someone once asked, which nature wins? The answer is "The one you feed!" You can feed the old nature, the things of the world...or...you can feed the new nature, God's Word.

This is all in the bible, and I can reference it all if you would like.(except for the part of the empty garage in Buffalo🙂

Originally posted by LemonJello
another larger technicality is that it is no free gift at all. a free gift can be declined without facing eternal torture.

another larger technicality is that it is no free gift at all. A free gift can be declined without facing eternal torture.

C'mon LJ, you can be cynical as much as you like, but don't be illogical. Just because you face consequences on whether you accept the gift or not, doesn't make it not free. (note the double negative)

I know this analogy has been flogged to death, but you remind me of a drowning man who rants on about the rope that has been thrown to him, wanting to somehow pay for the rope.

Originally posted by LemonJello
i'm not sure what you mean by 'valid'. how is a 'free gift' that is declined not 'valid'? it would then just simply be a free gift that was declined. the offerer and the decliner would then part ways amicably. i really don't get the 'free gift' analogy at all.

how is a 'free gift' that is declined not 'valid'?

You don't benefit from the gift.

the offerer and the decliner would then part ways amicably. i really don't get the 'free gift' analogy at all.

For this free gift analogy to be applicable there are quite a few presuppositions that you have to agree with, otherwise you are right, then it is a moot point.

1. Man has sinned and fallen short of God's moral standard.
2. Our human efforts fall painfully short of redeeming ourselves.
3. When Christ died He made restitution with God for our sins.
4. Christ is offering this gift of His restitution to anybody who would accept it.
5. By not accepting the Gift, you recieve the punishment which you would have gotten in the first place.

I hope this clears up some of the confusion.

Originally posted by kingdanwa
Which god are you talking about?

Don't know. I never really listened and didn't know there was more than one god. If so, how come everyone thinks their god is better than the next persons?

Originally posted by Halitose
The technicallity here is that one has to accept the free gift for it to be valid.

The technicallity here is that I didn't get one.

Originally posted by Moldy Crow
Nice scam ! I'm going to try that next time I have to buy a wedding present .

I've already posted it on ebay!!!



:-)

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I was always taught that if you were good all your life you go to heaven.
If you were bad, you end up in an empty garage in Buffalo....

Then I learned that all men are born bad. That is, they are born with a sinful nature, due to Adam's sin. Now I meet people that seem like nice good people, and I wonder, how come? They aren't even Christian!

Th ...[text shortened]... d I can reference it all if you would like.(except for the part of the empty garage in Buffalo🙂

What a sad way of looking at the world that all men are born evil and they have to believe in something to be good. And how silly that everyone is evil because their common ancestor was gullible/curious/not blindly obediant to a rule he didn't see the sense in. I find it disgusting that it's not what you do, but what you believe. I could be as saintly as they come and save thousands of lives, but I would go to hell for not believing in your god.