I was always taught that....

Originally posted by UmbrageOfSnow
What a sad way of looking at the world that all men are born evil and they have to believe in something to be good. And how silly that everyone is evil because their common ancestor was gullible/curious/not blindly obediant to a rule he didn't see the sense in. I find it disgusting that it's not what you do, but what you believe. I could be as sai ...[text shortened]... as they come and save thousands of lives, but I would go to hell for not believing in your god.

You are absolutely correct...it is a sad way to of looking at the world, that is why we have Evangelists.

It may sound silly to you, but put in Adams shoes, most of, if not all of us, would have done the same thing.

It is natural to believe as you do...
🙂

Originally posted by TheSphinx
I was always taught that when you died God would forgive you all your sins, regardless of what they were. Is this correct? Because if so, all the burglers, rapists, robbers, thugs in general are all going to be allowed to sit on Gods knee and be given forgiveness.

Sounds a bit fishy to me........

Where did you hear this?

Originally posted by UmbrageOfSnow
What a sad way of looking at the world that all men are born evil and they have to believe in something to be good. And how silly that everyone is evil because their common ancestor was gullible/curious/not blindly obediant to a rule he didn't see the sense in. I find it disgusting that it's not what you do, but what you believe. I could be as sai ...[text shortened]... as they come and save thousands of lives, but I would go to hell for not believing in your god.

What a sad way of looking at the world that all men are born evil and they have to believe in something to be good.

I didn't say that. I personally know that I am sinful and in need of salvation. For all I know you might be the perfectly good person everybody is refering to when this topic is refuted.

And how silly that everyone is evil because their common ancestor was gullible/curious/not blindly obediant to a rule he didn't see the sense in.

If I hadn't sinned I wouldn't be under this curse of evil. Unfortunately I did.

I find it disgusting that it's not what you do, but what you believe.
I think it's a combination of the two.

I could be as saintly as they come and save thousands of lives, but I would go to hell for not believing in your god.

Are you saintly and saving thousands of lives? If you are then lets discuss this.

Originally posted by Halitose
For this free gift analogy to be applicable there are quite a few presuppositions that you have to agree with, otherwise you are right, then it is a moot point.

1. Man has sinned and fallen short of God's moral standard.
2. Our human efforts fall painfully short of redeeming ourselves.
3. When Christ died He made restitution with God for our sins.
...[text shortened]... which you would have gotten in the first place.

I hope this clears up some of the confusion.

Haliturd. you're still floating around? i thought i had flushed.

i think you are trying to defend an analogy that merits no defense:

#1, you have already stated that your god is omnipotent and omniscient. therefore, to say that you either accept the 'free gift' or you get the punishment you would already have gotten is smoke and mirrors. you would get the punishment that god himself would have willed you to get anyway. therefore, the whole thing is easily boiled down into one single exchange: either you accept this 'gift' or He'll cut your head off. that is not a 'free gift'; that is an ultimatum.
if you make the usual appeal to free will here, i am going to tune you out. to say that we are all drowning in a river doesn't change the fact that your god threw us all in despite knowing that we cannot swim.
if you make the usual appeal to satan here, i am going to tune you out. either you believe in an omnipotent god, or you believe in more than one god, none of which exercises omnipotence.

#2, i think the analogy does your own faith a disservice. to say salvation is a 'free gift' sounds to me just like Pascal's wager in disguise. if your god exists, he is not interested in faith founded on the perception of personal reward. salvation as a 'free gift' is not what jesus taught as i interpret his words: he'll only know you through deeds, toil, and the sweat that breaks on your brow. he gave you hands for doing deeds, not picking up free gifts. yes, i was being a little cynical; but a 'free gift' should not be the whole enchilada in the salvation analogy. faith without deeds will make you a stranger to your god.

Salvation is a free gift....many are saved, but do nothing in service. This is God's grace.
But to follow the Lord and obtain"rewards" at the Bema, is another thing.
One can get "saved" and choose to do nothing, and life doesn't change much.
But one who chooses to be saved and follow Jesus...then as the Lord said..one must "count the cost.".........
🙂

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Salvation is a free gift....many are saved, but do nothing in service. This is God's grace.
But to follow the Lord and obtain"rewards" at the Bema, is another thing.
One can get "saved" and choose to do nothing, and life doesn't change much.
But one who chooses to be saved and follow Jesus...then as the Lord said..one must "count the cost.".........
🙂

Salvation is a free gift....many are saved, but do nothing in service.

matthew 25 begs to differ.

Originally posted by LemonJello
Haliturd. you're still floating around? i thought i had flushed.

i think you are trying to defend an analogy that merits no defense:

#1, you have already stated that your god is omnipotent and omniscient. therefore, to say that you either accept the 'free gift' or you get the punishment you would already have gotten is smoke and mirrors. you ...[text shortened]... e enchilada in the salvation analogy. faith without deeds will make you a stranger to your god.

Haliturd. you're still floating around? i thought i had flushed.

I'm fine thanks and how are you?

i think you are trying to defend an analogy that merits no defense:

Well lets see...

#1, you have already stated that your god is omnipotent and omniscient. therefore, to say that you either accept the 'free gift' or you get the punishment you would already have gotten is smoke and mirrors.

Maybe you've thrown your own little mental smoke screen. Moving on...

if you make the usual appeal to free will here, i am going to tune you out. to say that we are all drowning in a river doesn't change the fact that your god threw us all in despite knowing that we cannot swim.

I am making the appeal to free will here and no, God didn't throw us into the river.

By chosing of your own free will to sin, you are jumping of your own free will into the river. God doesn't make you sin, neither does He throw you into the river. God, knowing you can't swim is throwing you the rope of Christ. You can choose to hold onto the rope, which any logical person (cynical or not) would do, or be fish food.

Originally posted by LemonJello
[b]Salvation is a free gift....many are saved, but do nothing in service.

matthew 25 begs to differ.[/b]

They don't really care what Christ said, they only listen to Paul and the OT.

Originally posted by frogstomp
They don't really care what Christ said, they only listen to Paul and the OT.

They?

I believe faith without works to be dead.

Originally posted by Halitose
They?

I believe faith without works to be dead.

Good! can we change works to deeds ?

Mathew 25 does make it clear that salvation rests only of how you treat other people. and that's the words of the Savior , on the requirements of salvation.

I don't particully care what Paul would require. It's not Paul's gospel. ( pre-empting any Paul quotes)

Originally posted by frogstomp
Good! can we change works to deeds ?

Mathew 25 does make it clear that salvation rests only of how you treat other people. and that's the words of the Savior , on the requirements of salvation.

I don't particully care what Paul would require. It's not Paul's gospel. ( pre-empting any Paul quotes)

John 3:3 - Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Pray explain how you can be born again without faith?

Originally posted by dj2becker
John 3:3 - Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Pray explain how you can be born again without faith?

because :

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born
of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born
of the Spirit is spirit.
3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound
thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so
is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Originally posted by frogstomp
Good! can we change works to deeds ?

Mathew 25 does make it clear that salvation rests only of how you treat other people. and that's the words of the Savior , on the requirements of salvation.

I don't particully care what Paul would require. It's not Paul's gospel. ( pre-empting any Paul quotes)

Sure. No point in my getting sticky on the terminology:

I believe faith without good deeds is dead.

My Bible also has a few more verses than Matt 25. I think Biblical truth is like a diamond with multiple facets and angles. Here's a few more angles.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 5:39 Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Originally posted by frogstomp
because :

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born
of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born
of the Spirit is spirit.
3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
3:8 The wind bloweth where it listet ...[text shortened]... st not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so
is every one that is born of the Spirit.

How do you think that you can be born of the Spirit if you do not have faith in the salvation of Christ and have not faith in the working of the Holy Spirit?

Originally posted by Halitose
Sure. No point in my getting sticky on the terminology:

I believe faith without good deeds is dead.

My Bible also has a few more verses than Matt 25. I think Biblical truth is like a diamond with multiple facets and angles. Here's a few more angles.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 5:39 Sea ...[text shortened]... day.
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

So,

25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we
thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came untothee? 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of thesemy brethren, ye have done it unto me.

25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee
an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in
prison, and did not minister unto thee? 25:45 Then shall he answerthem, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the
righteous into life eternal.

Luke 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his
heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the
heart his mouth speaketh.