If Atheists were removed from America:

Originally posted by twhitehead
What a load of nonsense. I hate it when people have happy thoughts about the past and assume that all traditions were perfect in the past and that people were so nice.

As long as religious beliefs have existed there have been people who take advantage of it and I am sure that village shamans were no exception.

i am glad sonhouse is around. whenever some unfair dude points at rjhinds and says: look: that's the model of a religious fool i can point at sonhouse in return.

Originally posted by twhitehead
What a load of nonsense. I hate it when people have happy thoughts about the past and assume that all traditions were perfect in the past and that people were so nice.

As long as religious beliefs have existed there have been people who take advantage of it and I am sure that village shamans were no exception.

So our present day religious bureaucracy is totally superior to the ancient way?

I am not saying ancient ways were superior to ours but most christians would call them savages, just like what they did to the amerinds and aborigines. Just seems more than a tad bit arrogant.

Originally posted by sonhouse
So our present day religious bureaucracy is totally superior to the ancient way?

I am not saying ancient ways were superior to ours but most christians would call them savages, just like what they did to the amerinds and aborigines. Just seems more than a tad bit arrogant.

cannibalism in pacific and other parts. hearts cut off from live victims in mexico. oh yeh, it was much better then.

Originally posted by sonhouse
So our present day religious bureaucracy is totally superior to the ancient way?

Not at all. When did I even imply that?

I am not saying ancient ways were superior to ours...
You did seem to be saying that. You were claiming that shamen were neutral guides who somehow avoided influencing people and that only modern religious leaders engage in such nasty practices as taking advantage of peoples religious beliefs.

You are also claiming that "religions are there to control people" as if religions were created and maintained with a specific single purpose in mind. This is clearly far too simplistic. It think the vast majority of people actively involved in spreading and maintaining religion are not doing it with the purpose of controlling others.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Not at all. When did I even imply that?

[b]I am not saying ancient ways were superior to ours...
You did seem to be saying that. You were claiming that shamen were neutral guides who somehow avoided influencing people and that only modern religious leaders engage in such nasty practices as taking advantage of peoples religious beliefs.

You are ...[text shortened]... in spreading and maintaining religion are not doing it with the purpose of controlling others.[/b]

The vast majority of religious people are controlled. Controlled by fear of going to hell or whatever, enticed by the notion of going to heaven. Most of the good deeds done by christians are done with the idea they are saving in a deeds bank which enables a bye into heaven. How about a society where good deeds are done without the reference to a godly ladder but just because it is the right thing to do with no reward in sight?

Mother Teresa was interviewed and asked why she did her good deeds, she replied (paraphrasing) So I can increase the power of the catholic church.

Originally posted by sonhouse
The vast majority of religious people are controlled. Controlled by fear of going to hell or whatever, enticed by the notion of going to heaven. Most of the good deeds done by christians are done with the idea they are saving in a deeds bank which enables a bye into heaven. How about a society where good deeds are done without the reference to a godly ladde ...[text shortened]... d her good deeds, she replied (paraphrasing) So I can increase the power of the catholic church.

At least she knew that good deeds didn't get a person into heaven. Cant a good deed done, regardless of the motive, just be appreciated for what it is?

And as for religion "controlling" people, I hardly think so. Without people, there's no church, so I'd say it's the other way 'round. And that crack about Christians calling Abos and Amerinds savages...not ALL Christians said that. Facts are what I've come to expect from you--not generalizations.

Originally posted by sonhouse
I have been saying all along that religions engage in religious wars. You cannot dispute that. Religions are there to control people. Pure and simple. 10,000 years ago people did not have intermediaries in spirituality, they were free to pursue whatever they thought was spiritual, guided by the village shaman, a form of intermediary but the shaman never tol ...[text shortened]... filthy as that.

Besides, if the first video came true, you should be happy, no divided house.

You don't think atheist like a little control too? I mean how many times have
I heard about someone wanting to change long standing events to remove God
from them because they don't like it? That any different than someone forcing
you to join a group that has 'their' god in it? It is still about control,
and "PEOPLE" want others to conform to them, it is harder for them to just let
live and let live. They join groups then complain that there are references to
God in the groups, if they really didn't want to control why join and try to force
change?
Kelly

Originally posted by sonhouse
The vast majority of religious people are controlled.

But controlled by their own psychology, not by other people seeking power.

Originally posted by twhitehead
But controlled by their own psychology, not by other people seeking power.

Those other people are ALREADY in power. Say confession in catholic church, do penance. That isn't power? Confused people seeking help from their priest, or whatever they call the religious leader in their flock, the person giving the advice based on religion, that is not power? That is not feedback holding on to the person seeking advice?

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
At least she knew that good deeds didn't get a person into heaven. Cant a good deed done, regardless of the motive, just be appreciated for what it is?

And as for religion "controlling" people, I hardly think so. Without people, there's no church, so I'd say it's the other way 'round. And that crack about Christians calling Abos and Amerinds savages. ...[text shortened]... Christians said that. Facts are what I've come to expect from you--not generalizations.

I have heard it said the Brits ruled a couple of centuries ago, by contempt. They treated all native people with contempt. The French did a better job in that regard, at least in Canada.

Look what Cortez did to the Aztecs, contempt of that culture, just wanting glory and gold to send back to Spain.

Muslims right now are killing people of other religions in Africa if they don't bend to the will of the army of Islam and convert. Convert or die.

The inquisitions, pretty much the same. Get accused, you are guilty, the accusation was the verdict. Get a trial by torture, if you live, you are innocent but of course they all died of torture, so they must have been guilty.

Why do they still have an inquisition office still open in South America?

The thing is, even though you don't hear about much of that anymore in christianity, it could start over at any time, we are not safe. For instance, in the bible belt, forces of the christian right are trying to force the teaching of creationism in a science class. What happens if they win? What will they push next? So far the courts have seen through their thinly veiled arguments. How long will that keep up with more and more right wingers coming into power in the south?

You might say, it could never happen again, but I am certain it CAN happen again. The US is going down a dark road to religious dogma taking over government, we are very close to going down the same path as the muslims did in Iran.

Originally posted by sonhouse
I have heard it said the Brits ruled a couple of centuries ago, by contempt. They treated all native people with contempt. The French did a better job in that regard, at least in Canada.

Look what Cortez did to the Aztecs, contempt of that culture, just wanting glory and gold to send back to Spain.

Muslims right now are killing people of other relig ...[text shortened]... ing over government, we are very close to going down the same path as the muslims did in Iran.

Yea, next thing you know Atheist will try to force a godless view of the
beginnng into schools! Heck, they may try to force God out of the public arena
every chance they get. Sounds like power and control are human traits that
have nothing to do God, gods, or lack of God, but instead it is centered on the
heart of man. You do a good job of creating demons out of the people who do
not see the universe the same way you do.
Kelly

Originally posted by sonhouse
Those other people are ALREADY in power. Say confession in catholic church, do penance. That isn't power? Confused people seeking help from their priest, or whatever they call the religious leader in their flock, the person giving the advice based on religion, that is not power? That is not feedback holding on to the person seeking advice?

You could say that the priest holds some power over his congregation, but usually not very much, or when he does, he does, most do not take advantage of it.
I know some religious leaders misuse their power and when they do, their influence can be quite considerable. But it is not the norm.
Religions 'control' the way people live and act, but in the vast majority of cases it is consensual or more accurately deliberate on the part of the follower and only rarely is the control predominantly by a person. More often the religions teachings are the 'control' or the culture surrounding the religion (which often takes precedence over the religions teachings).

Originally posted by sonhouse
Well lets see. Does the word Crusades come to mind? How about Intifada?
Yessir, fun times with those two words.

Intifada ?

For a minute I thought you were writing Infanticide:

I wonder what proportion of people going for an abortion are atheistic or feel no sense of accountability to any Supreme Being.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide

Originally posted by jaywill
Intifada ?

For a minute I thought you were writing [b] Infanticide:

I wonder what proportion of people going for an abortion are atheistic or feel no sense of accountability to any Supreme Being.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide[/b]

That is one of the issues with being your own yard stick for all things you
want to measure. You want to be justified today for something you want to do
call it good, you want to hold another to a different standard come up with any
old reason to condemn. There is a lot an Atheist can do with the ever changing
scales of right and wrong.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
That is one of the issues with being your own yard stick for all things you
want to measure. You want to be justified today for something you want to do
call it good, you want to hold another to a different standard come up with any
old reason to condemn. There is a lot an Atheist can do with the ever changing
scales of right and wrong.
Kelly

There is a simple test: Common good. No god required. BTW, that is a different statement than saying 'there is no god'.

So what if there is a god? This purported god hasn't done anything noticeably good for the human race, hasn't disciplined us for wrecking the environment. In short, if we off ourselves, there will be no regrets by this god, just the end of an experiment.

BTW, I don't need quibbling about what is the 'common good'. That is a concept that works in every society on earth. You know what common good means. It just grinds your jaws that there is a measure of moral code that does not require a god, just human intelligence, which was all that was required to write the bible unaided by any godly advice.

To say there is no way unaided humans could ever come up with a non-religious moral code is to denigrate the intelligence and creativity of the human race. We as a race are on our own here and the sooner people realize that, the sooner we can have a real adult civilization, not this sniveling whiny contentious parody of civilization we have now.