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Originally posted by whodeySo, then the grace God showed us when he sent his son to atone for our sins is not free. In fact, you wrote a whole paragraph of things I need to do to "earn" this grace. Leaving aside the issue of "earning grace", which seems counter-intuitive in the extreme. Isn't all this stuff you need to do to have "faith" just a variation of the old "law" system? There are, apparently, still plenty of hoops to jump through and all of them require doing things that if you listen to Paul go against our wretched nature. I still don’t get how this is significantly different from the original system which Jesus was supposed to fulfill.
There is one who followed the law to the letter. Christ kept the law and as a result, sin and death had no power over him and wrongfully took him. Thus death, hell, and the grave have surrendered their rihgts over to him in regards to us and and himself and he was subsequently resurrected.
You feel as thoug faith is only a work? Granted, it says in Jame e, faith is not merely a simple work than say feeding the poor. There is more to it than that.
Finally, why did God not realize that his greatest creation (us, apparently) was so incredibly flawed that we could never manage to keep the law? Why not make a creature that could keep the law? Or he could have skipped the law altogether and gone straight to the grace thing (only making it truly free this time), thus avoiding the embarrassing situation in the Garden of Eden entirely and saving everyone a whole lot of trouble in the process?
TheSkipper
Originally posted by TheSkipperI in no way state that you "earn" grace. What I am saying is that grace occurs once you consent to God's provision for sin through faith. It is merely saying Jesus is Lord and believeing that he died for your sins. At this point grace takes over. Why should God violate your free will if he went to the trouble of providing you with one?
So, then the grace God showed us when he sent his son to atone for our sins is not free. In fact, you wrote a whole paragraph of things I need to do to "earn" this grace. Leaving aside the issue of "earning grace", which seems counter-intuitive in the extreme. Isn't all this stuff you need to do to have "faith" just a variation of the old "law" system? ...[text shortened]... Eden entirely and saving everyone a whole lot of trouble in the process?
TheSkipper
Originally posted by TheSkipperAgain, God gave us free will. This is because he is a God of love and love demands a free will.
Finally, why did God not realize that his greatest creation (us, apparently) was so incredibly flawed that we could never manage to keep the law? Why not make a creature that could keep the law? Or he could have skipped the law altogether and gone straight to the grace thing (only making it truly free this time), thus avoiding the embarrassing situation in ...[text shortened]... Garden of Eden entirely and saving everyone a whole lot of trouble in the process?
TheSkipper[/b]
Originally posted by whodeyI was led to believe that Christ died for sinners. I have also been led to believe that we are all sinners. This would mean that Chrsit died for all of us. Now, if we have a bunch of hoops to jump through in order to recieve this grace then it is very clearly NOT FREE and must be earned.
I in no way state that you "earn" grace. What I am saying is that grace occurs once you consent to God's provision for sin through faith. It is merely saying Jesus is Lord and believeing that he died for your sins. At this point grace takes over. Why should God violate your free will if he went to the trouble of providing you with one?
How is eliminating the need to earn this grace a violation of my free will? If my friend steals from me and through grace I forgive him I'm not violating his free will. Furthermore, if I ask my friend to do something before I will forgive him this is not grace...it is a transaction.
TheSkipper
Originally posted by whodeyThis is very simple. God need not violate our free will by blessing us with his grace. I can tell my wife right now that anything she does against me now and in the future is forgiven. How would this violate her free will?
Again, God gave us free will. This is because he is a God of love and love demands a free will.
TheSkipper
Originally posted by TheSkipperOnce again I will say that we do not earn grace. Romans 4:4 says, "If a man has work to show, his wages are not considered as a favor but as his due; but when a man has nothing to show except faith in the one who justifies sinners, then his faith is considered as justifying him. And David says the same; a man is happy if God considers him righteous, irrespective of good deeds. Ephesians 2:8 says, "For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the GIFT of God. Not by works, lest any man should boast. You may refer to faith as "jumping through hoops" but this is what is required for salvation. Unbelief in what God says is a sin because it is more or less calling God a liar. God cannot be apart of sin and must judge sin. Otherwise he would be an unjust judge and a partaker of that sin. Could you imagine a loved one being murdered in cold blood only to have some unjust judge let them go free. Would you not be upset at the unjust judge? If the man goes back out and kills again the blood of that victim should have some culpability with that crime not to mention the missed chance to make him pay for his crime. Sin must be dealt with by God by "washing it away" in order for God to not judge you for your sin. Without faith and belief in the sacrifice of Christ that washes away sin, this will not happen.
I was led to believe that Christ died for sinners. I have also been led to believe that we are all sinners. This would mean that Chrsit died for all of us. Now, if we have a bunch of hoops to jump through in order to recieve this grace then it is very clearly NOT FREE and must be earned.
How is eliminating the need to earn this grace a violation of ...[text shortened]... o do something before I will forgive him this is not grace...it is a transaction.
TheSkipper
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Originally posted by TheSkipperYou could do that, however, this would not be a just act. Every action has a consequence whether it is positive or negative. For example, if Hilary wrongs you in some way, she should have to answer for this sin just as you had to answer for your sin when you cheated on her and lied to the world about it. God is just and therefore demands justice.
This is very simple. God need not violate our free will by blessing us with his grace. I can tell my wife right now that anything she does against me now and in the future is forgiven. How would this violate her free will?
TheSkipper
Originally posted by whodeyYes, but that is exactly it, God took that justice out on Jesus instead of us (the basic definition of grace)
You could do that, however, this would not be a just act. Every action has a consequence whether it is positive or negative. For example, if Hilary wrongs you in some way, she should have to answer for this sin just as you had to answer for your sin when you cheated on her and lied to the world about it. God is just and therefore demands justice.
Jesus takes our place of deserved judgement, even though He did not deserve it. Acknowledging that fact of our own free will is accepting God's grace
One huge weakness in the christian faith is the concept of having free will as an underpinning of this religion.
There have been many studies done on identical twins where, even though raised a thousand miles apart and totally unaware that there even WAS a twin, many of these people go on to marry nearly identical kind of girls, in some cases marrying ldentical twins who also did not know they had a twin. Naming the kids the same, buying the same color car, etc. You find cases like this all the time. That blows a big hole in the supposed free will we are ALL supposed to have. If those twins come to the same decisions in life, they are not following free will but some kind of subliminal programming, the same as anyone who watches commercials on TV, those commercials have a definite effect on the population and a proportion of them will respond to the ads. This seems to me to further erode the idea we have free will. What it looks like to me is the illusion of free will not the actuality.
Suppose we go back 65 million years and look at the end of the dinosaurs. Surely they had free will in the sense they were free to evolve into whatever ecological niche they could fill but all the genetic free will did them no good when the world got whacked by an asteroid with enough energy to strike fires in a four thousand mile radius.
The same thing could happen to us at any time. When the recent tsunami hit Indonesia would you call that our collective free will that caused a quarter million people to die? Of course I will now hear why that has nothing to do with free will so have at it.