20 Jun '06 14:511 editOriginally posted by FreakyKBHSo what you are saying is that we're bound for hell already and it's god's benevolence that he extends his hand to offer us a way out?
From your posts, it appears that you are under the impression that folks go to hell for sin. If people went to hell for their deeds, then you would have more of a point, respective of forced service. However, as no one ventures to hell that really doesn't want to be there, your argument loses support.
20 Jun '06 15:00Originally posted by StarrmanYes. We started talking about this on earlier threads. Specifically, we are preserved physically alive while spiritually dead, just for the opportunity for God to offer eternal justification.
So what you are saying is that we're bound for hell already and it's god's benevolence that he extends his hand to offer us a way out?
20 Jun '06 15:05Originally posted by FreakyKBHHow do you reconcile the turn of events which have caused this situation with the prior knowledge of god that he knew Adam would eat the apple and that all subsequent generations would be spiritually dead?
Yes. We started talking about this on earlier threads. Specifically, we are preserved physically alive while spiritually dead, just for the opportunity for God to offer eternal justification.
Those imputations that God has set up make possible our eternal state of salvation. Because justice (as opposed to love) became our point of contact with God, w ...[text shortened]... our relational ability (affinity) with God. Under love in the Garden, it was always day-to-day.
20 Jun '06 15:16Originally posted by StarrmanIn a word, genius. As the relationship in the Garden was never secure, and totally depended upon the subjectivity of personal love, God had to create some system which would allow for a permanent outcome.
How do you reconcile the turn of events which have caused this situation with the prior knowledge of god that he knew Adam would eat the apple and that all subsequent generations would be spiritually dead?
20 Jun '06 15:31Originally posted by FreakyKBHI don't buy it. And I don't think the bible sets out to say it is this way either. You are the first person from whom I've heard it put this way. Lucifershammer, for example, believes that we are not born spiritually dead, but innocent of sin (or at least that's the impression I seem to remember from the previous thread). Can you provide any scripture to back up these claims?
In a word, genius. As the relationship in the Garden was never secure, and totally depended upon the subjectivity of personal love, God had to create some system which would allow for a permanent outcome.
That's where imputation comes into play. As imputation can be real or judicial (either where affinity exists or where affinity does not, but rather ...[text shortened]... o play a part without either adding to or taking away from God's work--- and therefore, glory.
20 Jun '06 15:35Originally posted by Bosse de NageYou mean friends don't serve each other?
You'd also have to introduce me to Their Ineffability. If we hit it off, there's no reason we couldn't be friends. One of the few credible religious outfits I've come across, the Sufis, are known as the Friends of God (not the Servants or what have you).
20 Jun '06 15:38Originally posted by StarrmanFor which would you like references?
I don't buy it. And I don't think the bible sets out to say it is this way either. You are the first person from whom I've heard it put this way. Lucifershammer, for example, believes that we are not born spiritually dead, but innocent of sin (or at least that's the impression I seem to remember from the previous thread). Can you provide any scripture t ...[text shortened]... ould make it so hard to be saved, his extended hand is one gloved in non-stick coating, why?
20 Jun '06 15:42Originally posted by StarrmanNot sure if what I think about original sin has come across well, so I'll just post a link to the relevant CCC section:
I don't buy it. And I don't think the bible sets out to say it is this way either. You are the first person from whom I've heard it put this way. Lucifershammer, for example, believes that we are not born spiritually dead, but innocent of sin (or at least that's the impression I seem to remember from the previous thread). Can you provide any scripture t ...[text shortened]... ould make it so hard to be saved, his extended hand is one gloved in non-stick coating, why?
20 Jun '06 15:431 editOriginally posted by FreakyKBHAs an a-believer, it is nigh on impossible to accept such a view. Do not tell me, coming from a standpoint of accepted belief, that it is easy.
For which would you like references?
God does not make it hard, just the opposite is true. How much easier can you make it than non-meritorious faith in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross?
20 Jun '06 15:46Originally posted by Bosse de NageNeither is a Creator-creation relationship. It can be very like friendship at times, and very like familial relationships at times - but it is something unique.
A parent-child relationship is not the same as that between friends.
20 Jun '06 15:49Originally posted by FreakyKBHOkay, so works (following the law) cannot save us because, for one thing, we in our current condition cannot follow the law. I wonder of somebody somehow managed to follow the law if he/she would be saved? I guess I doubt it.
Because all of our personal sins (including Adam's and the woman's) were imputed to Christ on the cross no one dies for their personal sins. This is where salvation comes into the picture. Salvation is not wrought by keeping the Law or by attaining some lofty moral standard. The Law was impossible to keep (body of sin, again) and regardless of the ...[text shortened]... . So short, in fact, that God likens them to used menstral rags. How's that for imagery!
20 Jun '06 16:542 editsOriginally posted by TheSkipperThere is one who followed the law to the letter. Christ kept the law and as a result, sin and death had no power over him and wrongfully took him. Thus death, hell, and the grave have surrendered their rihgts over to him in regards to us and and himself and he was subsequently resurrected.
Okay, so works (following the law) cannot save us because, for one thing, we in our current condition cannot follow the law. I wonder of somebody somehow managed to follow the law if he/she would be saved? I guess I doubt it.
So the only way we can be saved is by accepting God's grace. Isn't this just another "work"? We don't have to follow the law st "accept" it or we don't get it. Not sure this passes the sniff test.
TheSkipper
If God exists........
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