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Originally posted by FreakyKBHSo what you are saying is that we're bound for hell already and it's god's benevolence that he extends his hand to offer us a way out?
From your posts, it appears that you are under the impression that folks go to hell for sin. If people went to hell for their deeds, then you would have more of a point, respective of forced service. However, as no one ventures to hell that really doesn't want to be there, your argument loses support.
Originally posted by StarrmanYes. We started talking about this on earlier threads. Specifically, we are preserved physically alive while spiritually dead, just for the opportunity for God to offer eternal justification.
So what you are saying is that we're bound for hell already and it's god's benevolence that he extends his hand to offer us a way out?
Those imputations that God has set up make possible our eternal state of salvation. Because justice (as opposed to love) became our point of contact with God, we have the opportunity to never lose salvation, never lose our relational ability (affinity) with God. Under love in the Garden, it was always day-to-day.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHHow do you reconcile the turn of events which have caused this situation with the prior knowledge of god that he knew Adam would eat the apple and that all subsequent generations would be spiritually dead?
Yes. We started talking about this on earlier threads. Specifically, we are preserved physically alive while spiritually dead, just for the opportunity for God to offer eternal justification.
Those imputations that God has set up make possible our eternal state of salvation. Because justice (as opposed to love) became our point of contact with God, w ...[text shortened]... our relational ability (affinity) with God. Under love in the Garden, it was always day-to-day.
Originally posted by StarrmanIn a word, genius. As the relationship in the Garden was never secure, and totally depended upon the subjectivity of personal love, God had to create some system which would allow for a permanent outcome.
How do you reconcile the turn of events which have caused this situation with the prior knowledge of god that he knew Adam would eat the apple and that all subsequent generations would be spiritually dead?
That's where imputation comes into play. As imputation can be real or judicial (either where affinity exists or where affinity does not, but rather is ruled), this system allows for man to play a part without either adding to or taking away from God's work--- and therefore, glory.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHI don't buy it. And I don't think the bible sets out to say it is this way either. You are the first person from whom I've heard it put this way. Lucifershammer, for example, believes that we are not born spiritually dead, but innocent of sin (or at least that's the impression I seem to remember from the previous thread). Can you provide any scripture to back up these claims?
In a word, genius. As the relationship in the Garden was never secure, and totally depended upon the subjectivity of personal love, God had to create some system which would allow for a permanent outcome.
That's where imputation comes into play. As imputation can be real or judicial (either where affinity exists or where affinity does not, but rather ...[text shortened]... o play a part without either adding to or taking away from God's work--- and therefore, glory.
If this were the case, I can only presume a perverse god would make it so hard to be saved, his extended hand is one gloved in non-stick coating, why?
Originally posted by Bosse de NageYou mean friends don't serve each other?
You'd also have to introduce me to Their Ineffability. If we hit it off, there's no reason we couldn't be friends. One of the few credible religious outfits I've come across, the Sufis, are known as the Friends of God (not the Servants or what have you).
Originally posted by StarrmanFor which would you like references?
I don't buy it. And I don't think the bible sets out to say it is this way either. You are the first person from whom I've heard it put this way. Lucifershammer, for example, believes that we are not born spiritually dead, but innocent of sin (or at least that's the impression I seem to remember from the previous thread). Can you provide any scripture t ...[text shortened]... ould make it so hard to be saved, his extended hand is one gloved in non-stick coating, why?
God does not make it hard, just the opposite is true. How much easier can you make it than non-meritorious faith in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross?
Originally posted by StarrmanNot sure if what I think about original sin has come across well, so I'll just post a link to the relevant CCC section:
I don't buy it. And I don't think the bible sets out to say it is this way either. You are the first person from whom I've heard it put this way. Lucifershammer, for example, believes that we are not born spiritually dead, but innocent of sin (or at least that's the impression I seem to remember from the previous thread). Can you provide any scripture t ...[text shortened]... ould make it so hard to be saved, his extended hand is one gloved in non-stick coating, why?
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm#III
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Originally posted by FreakyKBHAs an a-believer, it is nigh on impossible to accept such a view. Do not tell me, coming from a standpoint of accepted belief, that it is easy.
For which would you like references?
God does not make it hard, just the opposite is true. How much easier can you make it than non-meritorious faith in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross?
References for the notion that man is spiritually dead by default and must gain his spirituality by accepting god.
Originally posted by Bosse de NageNeither is a Creator-creation relationship. It can be very like friendship at times, and very like familial relationships at times - but it is something unique.
A parent-child relationship is not the same as that between friends.
I'm sure your Sufi friends did not decide they would worship God only if their demands were met.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHOkay, so works (following the law) cannot save us because, for one thing, we in our current condition cannot follow the law. I wonder of somebody somehow managed to follow the law if he/she would be saved? I guess I doubt it.
Because all of our personal sins (including Adam's and the woman's) were imputed to Christ on the cross no one dies for their personal sins. This is where salvation comes into the picture. Salvation is not wrought by keeping the Law or by attaining some lofty moral standard. The Law was impossible to keep (body of sin, again) and regardless of the ...[text shortened]... . So short, in fact, that God likens them to used menstral rags. How's that for imagery!
So the only way we can be saved is by accepting God's grace. Isn't this just another "work"? We don't have to follow the law anymore but instead we need to accept grace. How does God assume we can do this (considering our sinful nature) but cannot follow the law? Further, isn't one of the important componenets of grace that it is freely given? Yet in order to benefit from God's grace we must "accept" it or we don't get it. Not sure this passes the sniff test.
TheSkipper
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Originally posted by TheSkipperThere is one who followed the law to the letter. Christ kept the law and as a result, sin and death had no power over him and wrongfully took him. Thus death, hell, and the grave have surrendered their rihgts over to him in regards to us and and himself and he was subsequently resurrected.
Okay, so works (following the law) cannot save us because, for one thing, we in our current condition cannot follow the law. I wonder of somebody somehow managed to follow the law if he/she would be saved? I guess I doubt it.
So the only way we can be saved is by accepting God's grace. Isn't this just another "work"? We don't have to follow the law st "accept" it or we don't get it. Not sure this passes the sniff test.
TheSkipper
You feel as thoug faith is only a work? Granted, it says in James that faith without works is dead, however, this only points out that you will practice what you believe and not the specific works themselves that save you. As far as faith merely being a work, I would say that there is more to fiath than merely doing a work. Faith in God's word accomplishes three things. It promotes his perfect will for us in this world. It openly shows a level of trust in him in that he is benevolent towards us and he is not a liar. And lastly, it requires free will, which is a necessary component of love, to excercies itself via faith. Faith is the consent you give God to work through you and in you. Abraham gave God consent to work through him via faith in God and, as a result, God was able to not only bless him, but also bless ALL the nations through him and is what we see today as foretold in scripture. Without this consent, you are on your own. If you are on your own you have no power to save yourself. If you want to continue to live, you must be connected to the God of life. This requires your consent, however. To be saved one must confess Jesus as Lord and believe that he was raised from the dead. This could be considered a work, I suppose, but most importantly it is a personal declaration of your agreement with God in regards to the nature of things. You are saying that God is not a liar for telling us through his word that he sent his son to die for us and save us. You are also giving him consent to work through you by declaring him Lord over yourself. As you can see, faith is not merely a simple work than say feeding the poor. There is more to it than that.