Originally posted by StarrmanThese are the assumptions based on the assumption that the Bible is the true word of God.
You have yet to give me a reason why I should do anything more than acknowledge his existence, which of course I would be compelled to do.
1. He sees and hears and knows all when you cannot.
2. He love you and desires what is best for you.
3. He loves you and wants you and desires fellowship with you.
4. He can provide you eternal life as well as more fulfilling life on earth.
The benefits to you are obvious if such a scenerio are true.
Originally posted by whodeyBut they are conditional. It's a trade and one in which all the cards are in his hands. The upshot is, either I serve him, or I go to hell, this is a threat of force. If you add to this the appalling ineptitude of his supposed governance of us, I would not wish to serve such a god. It would be service under duress.
These are the assumptions based on the assumption that the Bible is the true word of God.
1. He sees and hears and knows all when you cannot.
2. He love you and desires what is best for you.
3. He loves you and wants you and desires fellowship with you.
4. He can provide you eternal life as well as more fulfilling life on earth.
The benefits to you are obvious if such a scenerio are true.
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Originally posted by StarrmanHow can all the cards not be in his hands since he owns the deck? What is amazing is that even though all the cards are in his hands he is still able to forfiet some control over his creation to afford them the oppurtunity to make such decisions. God would be forcing you to serve him if you did not have the oppurtunity to reject this service. What is he to do then? If God forces you to serve him he is a brute. If he does not force you to serve him then it affords you the chance to sin or deviate from what he tells you is best for you. If you sin he cannot have a part of it due to the fact that he is telling you to do what is best for you. If he embraced your sin he would be embracing your decision for what is not best for you. If he acted in such a way, he would no longer be a God of love. Assuming that God is the God of life and you reject him, what is left? Death is then the only alternative.
But they are conditional. It's a trade and one in which all the cards are in his hands. The upshot is, either I serve him, or I go to hell, this is a threat of force. If you add to this the appalling ineptitude of his supposed governance of us, I would not wish to serve such a god. It would be service under duress.
Originally posted by whodeyEither I am autonomous or I am not. If I am, then I should be allowed to exercise my desires. If I am not, then my existence is immaterial.
How can all the cards not be in his hands since he owns the deck? What is amazing is that even though all the cards are in his hands he is still able to forfiet some control over his creation to afford them the oppurtunity to make such decisions. God would be forcing you to serve him if you did not have the oppurtunity to reject this service. What is he to ...[text shortened]... at God is the God of life and you reject him, what is left? Death is then the only alternative.
God created me, if I act in any way which he doesn't like, then it's his problem for creating me in such a way. If he (as you say) forfeited some of his control, then either this is a big game (like rats in a maze), or he must be prepared for the likelyhood that I will reject him. He made the rules, if he can't abide by them, then that's not my problem.
Originally posted by StarrmanJust because he created us with the ability to sin, does not mean that he created us to sin. There is a big difference.
Either I am autonomous or I am not. If I am, then I should be allowed to exercise my desires. If I am not, then my existence is immaterial.
God created me, if I act in any way which he doesn't like, then it's his problem for creating me in such a way. If he (as you say) forfeited some of his control, then either this is a big game (like rats in a maze ...[text shortened]... will reject him. He made the rules, if he can't abide by them, then that's not my problem.
Originally posted by StarrmanHe is omniscient. He therefore provided a way for redemption before the begining of time. You only focus on your sufferings and not on his when he planned to go to the cross. Just because we have sinned in no way means we have to live in that sin and die in that sin. Now we have the best case scenerio possible. We have the option to accept or reject him. If he is tha God of love that he is proported to be in the Bible, we must have this option. Love demands a choice.
Not if he is omniscient.
Originally posted by whodeyThe Bible is not only self contradictory on the subject of God, but also lacking in clarity (rumoured to require secret decoder rings to understand) so I would still need answers to my questions.
This question assumes that the true God is the God of the Bible. Therefore, there is nothing more to prove. I suppose this question assumes that most people know much about the Bible in order to give a knowledgeable response.
The bigest question would probably be based on the "what does it benefit me" bit. A promise of eternal life is meaningless to me unless I can understand what the word 'life' means in this context because it is clearly different from my understanding of the word.
Originally posted by whodeyIf he is omniscient and he created me with the ability to sin, he must have known whether I would sin or not. Since he knows that I will sin, the choice is not a choice at all. Either he should have prevented me from sinning,or being able to sin, or he should not pretend that I had a choice in it, since he undoubtedly knew it would happen before my creation ocurred.
He is omniscient. He therefore provided a way for redemption before the begining of time. You only focus on your sufferings and not on his when he planned to go to the cross. Just because we have sinned in no way means we have to live in that sin and die in that sin. Now we have the best case scenerio possible. We have the option to accept or reject him. ...[text shortened]... love that he is proported to be in the Bible, we must have this option. Love demands a choice.
Jesus died by crucifixion after only a few days pain, many people die every year in more prolonged and more painful ways. Jesus got off lightly, which, as far as I am concerned, shows favouritism. When god sets his house in order and lives up to the supposed claims he makes about our relationship, then he gets my time. Until then he's a joke.
Originally posted by StarrmanA few corrections on your misconceptions regarding sin, salvation and service, if you'll humor me.
But they are conditional. It's a trade and one in which all the cards are in his hands. The upshot is, either I serve him, or I go to hell, this is a threat of force. If you add to this the appalling ineptitude of his supposed governance of us, I would not wish to serve such a god. It would be service under duress.
One, no one dies for their personal sins. We sin because we are spiritually dead: we do not spiritually die because of our sin. Only two people were qualified to be in that situation, Adam and Jesus... and we all know how those two situations turned out.
Adam's personal sin resulted in spiritual death, eventuating in physical death. The spiritual death he brought into the world is perpetuated through his seed, thus, we his progeny are all born spiritually dead, imputed with Adam's original sin. While God provides an untainted soul, that soul is placed in a body of sin.
Because all of our personal sins (including Adam's and the woman's) were imputed to Christ on the cross no one dies for their personal sins. This is where salvation comes into the picture. Salvation is not wrought by keeping the Law or by attaining some lofty moral standard. The Law was impossible to keep (body of sin, again) and regardless of the loftiness of our morals, our standards fall far too short to even be considered. So short, in fact, that God likens them to used menstral rags. How's that for imagery!
Salvation is purchased via one way, and one way only. Namely, non-meritorious faith. Taking as one's own the work done by Christ on the cross is the only place that faith may be placed efficaciously. No works, no service, no gaining favor for religous activity. Simple faith wins the day. Armed with that saving faith, the believer is now imputed with the righteousness of Christ, perfectly acceptable in every way to God's standards.
That imputation of Christ's perfection demands that God bless the believer, and bless He does!
And, lastly, speaking of service... all Christians are in full-time service to God. Some are just better at it than others. Service is nothing more than the overflow of the person's heart. While some serve out of religious desires (read guilt), a precious few serve out of spiritual maturity, itself the only true--- and rewardable--- motivating factor.
Originally posted by twhiteheadSmall correction relative to the SDR. The basic issues of the Christian life are extremely evident, made so by virtue of the need to make them perspicuous to a spiritually dead mind. Once past that gate, however, the graduated levels of spirituality can only be understood by the spiritual mature.
The Bible is not only self contradictory on the subject of God, but also lacking in clarity (rumoured to require secret decoder rings to understand) so I would still need answers to my questions.
The bigest question would probably be based on the "what does it benefit me" bit. A promise of eternal life is meaningless to me unless I can understand what th ...[text shortened]... fe' means in this context because it is clearly different from my understanding of the word.
Although these issues are plainly written, for some inexplicable reason, both the spiritually dead and spiritually immature are unable to decipher their meanings. It's not surprising, however, that God would opt to hide His truths in plain sight. He sets traps for the trap-setters.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHForgive me, but I don't see how this either highlights on my supposed misconceptions, nor impacts on the topic at hand.
A few corrections on your misconceptions regarding sin, salvation and service, if you'll humor me.
One, no one dies for their personal sins. We sin because we are spiritually dead: we do not spiritually die because of our sin. Only two people were qualified to be in that situation, Adam and Jesus... and we all know how those two situations turned out. ...[text shortened]... ut of spiritual maturity, itself the only true--- and rewardable--- motivating factor.
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Originally posted by StarrmanFrom your posts, it appears that you are under the impression that folks go to hell for sin. If people went to hell for their deeds, then you would have more of a point, respective of forced service. However, as no one ventures to hell that really doesn't want to be there, your argument loses support.
Forgive me, but I don't see how this either highlights on my supposed misconceptions, nor impacts on the topic at hand.