If god then ...

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]Also, Quantum Physics currently tells us that particles pop in and out of existence in a Quantum Vacuum.
They do?
Or is it that they pop in and out of observation?[/b]

Existence.

The theory says they pop into and out of existence.

The experimental data strongly backs this up.

Now it's not an absolute certainty by any means, but it's far more likely than not.

Originally posted by RJHinds
God has a purpose.

What purpose could an uncreated being possibly have, other than what she makes for herself?

Anyway, the discussion is about cause for existence, not purpose.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Precisely.
But I was really after hooking one of the mad Christians.
Seems not one of them can argue (logically) against it.

heh, good luck with that.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
1. Everything that exists [in this universe] has a cause


we do not know how causality works outside it. (if there is an outside). maybe there is no time and everything is a messed up soup of events.

We don't even know how causality works INSIDE the universe. We merely observe that y follows x with consistent regularity, but CAUSALITY we never observe.

Originally posted by moonbus
We don't even know how causality works INSIDE the universe. We merely observe that y follows x with consistent regularity, but CAUSALITY we never observe.

who really cares

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
They do?
Or is it that they pop in and out of observation?

It is unknown. We do not know whether or not quantum effects are random or strictly deterministic (but practically impossible to calculate).
Whichever the reality is, it remains a fact that it is not known that everything has a cause. In fact, the vast majority of events at the quantum scale are not known to have causes. So any argument based on the claim that everything is known to have a cause is based on a false premise.

GOD is a 3 letter word no more no less.

Originally posted by redbarons
who really cares

Those who make (or re-quote) metaphysical arguments based on a first-cause or unmoved-mover to explain how the universe got started.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
1. Everything that exists has a cause
2. God exists
3. Therefore God has a cause

What's wrong with this argument?

God is the cause.

You won't get it.

Originally posted by josephw
God is the cause.

You won't get it.

I did not ask "What is god?" or "What is the cause?"

I did not ask "Who won't get it?"


I asked what was wrong with the argument.
(If you cannot tell me then you must agree with the conclusion)
I'm afraid you may have to think a little bit. (Sorry)

Originally posted by wolfgang59
1. Everything that exists has a cause
2. God exists
3. Therefore God has a cause

What's wrong with this argument?

There is nothing wrong with this argument.

The only reason it seems wrong to you is that you do not comprehend, yet.

There is always hope. And I know God hears my prayers. Wolfgang i look forward to that day.

Originally posted by Pudgenik
There is nothing wrong with this argument.

The only reason it seems wrong to you is that you do not comprehend, yet.

There is always hope. And I know God hears my prayers. Wolfgang i look forward to that day.

So you agree with the premises and the conclusion.
Do you have any idea what caused god or just believe something caused his existence?

Originally posted by wolfgang59
So you agree with the premises and the conclusion.
Do you have any idea what caused god or just believe something caused his existence?

Your interpretation of the word cause is not mine.

God has a cause, has a purpose, it is us.

Originally posted by Pudgenik
Your interpretation of the word cause is not mine.

God has a cause, has a purpose, it is us.

So you are using the definition of cause to mean purpose? I believe his meaning of cause is the producer of an action, effect, result, or consequence.

Originally posted by Pudgenik
Your interpretation of the word cause is not mine.

God has a cause, has a purpose, it is us.

There is a use of the word "cause" to mean "purpose", as in 'fighting for a cause' ("I have a dream" MLK). This however is not the sense in the argument above.