Originally posted by wolfgang59Everything is wrong with it.
1. Everything that exists has a cause
2. God exists
3. Therefore God has a cause
What's wrong with this argument?
First, it should be that everything that came to exist has a cause.
Second, God did not come to exist, but always existed.
Third, therefore God was uncaused.
HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!
Originally posted by wolfgang591. Everything that exists [in this universe] has a cause
1. Everything that exists has a cause
2. God exists
3. Therefore God has a cause
What's wrong with this argument?
we do not know how causality works outside it. (if there is an outside). maybe there is no time and everything is a messed up soup of events.
Originally posted by wolfgang59His problem, as he stated and you ignored, is that it concludes that God has a cause. This is contrary to his belief and so he rephrased the premises to allow for a conclusion that does fit his belief. That's my understanding anyway and I am sure RJ will correct me if I am wrong.
Premise 1
Premise 2
Conclusion
What exactly is your problem?
On a separate point, I don't think premise 1 is true (or indeed premise 2).
--- Penguin
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Originally posted by PenguinThat's contrary to my belief, so god has a cause.
His problem, as he stated and you ignored, is that it concludes that God has a cause. This is contrary to his belief and so he rephrased the premises to allow for a conclusion that does fit his belief.
Originally posted by wolfgang59It's valid, to be sure ... but is it sound?
1. Everything that exists has a cause
2. God exists
3. Therefore God has a cause
What's wrong with this argument?
I tend to reject Premise 1. I am not sure the Universe has a cause. At any rate, as S. Hawking points out, any events that may have happened before the Big Bang can have no observable consequences, so we might as well cut them out and say time started at the Big Bang.
Also, Quantum Physics currently tells us that particles pop in and out of existence in a Quantum Vacuum.
(These are some of the same objections that popped up in the Kalam thread.)
Originally posted by ZahlanziPrecisely.
1. Everything that exists [in this universe] has a cause
we do not know how causality works outside it. (if there is an outside). maybe there is no time and everything is a messed up soup of events.
But I was really after hooking one of the mad Christians.
Seems not one of them can argue (logically) against it.
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemAlso, Quantum Physics currently tells us that particles pop in and out of existence in a Quantum Vacuum.
It's valid, to be sure ... but is it sound?
I tend to reject Premise 1. I am not sure the Universe has a cause. At any rate, as S. Hawking points out, any events that may have happened before the Big Bang can have no observable consequences, so we might as well cut them out and say time started at the Big Bang.
Also, Quantum Physics currently te ...[text shortened]... a Quantum Vacuum.
(These are some of the same objections that popped up in the Kalam thread.)
They do?
Or is it that they pop in and out of observation?
Originally posted by PenguinI gotta side with RJ on this one 😕
His problem, as he stated and you ignored, is that it concludes that God has a cause. This is contrary to his belief and so he rephrased the premises to allow for a conclusion that does fit his belief. That's my understanding anyway and I am sure RJ will correct me if I am wrong.
On a separate point, I don't think premise 1 is true (or indeed premise 2).
--- Penguin