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Originally posted by whodeyMust there be sin for there to be free will then?
God's will is perfection. Therefore, anything that counters this will is imperfection. It is not a matter of God bringing in imperfection. It is a matter of us being able to choose imperfection.
If God created us to have free will knowing full well that none would "fall", would this really be free will?
Originally posted by DarfiusAlexander the Great and Washington can't reveal themselves to us. Supposedly God can.
Originally posted by darvlay
[b]If I was God and I created a race of humans who I claimed to love more than all other creations, I would at least reveal myself to them and provide proof of my existence so that 95% of them wouldn't have to burn in hell when all is said and done.
Are you claiming that the only proof for His existence would be re ...[text shortened]... e 'burns' in hell. The fire was symbolic of judgment, i.e. "the Lord will come in fire."[/b]
Originally posted by whodeyI never understood the concept of "free will". I am not free to be fifty feet tall, to be made out of zinc, or to be always happy, yet this doesn't bother people who believe in "free will". Why would denying people the option to be miserable and unhappy be any different?
So you would MAKE everyone happy, but you would also INSURE everyone an existence free of suffering. So then there would be no free will involved in your creation?
In any case, I don't value "free will" at all. I don't even understand what people mean by it. Happiness is what matters.
Originally posted by rwingett
When god created us he knew the exact percentage who would fail. He could have tweaked that percentage up or down while still leaving free will perfectly intact. We can only assume that god wanted the exact percentage that we see occuring all around us.
You know what's in bold how? In other words, how do you know that this is not the world wherein the most number of people possible freely choose God?
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Originally posted by AThousandYoungThe point was that although you have never seen those two personally, you still (presumably) believe they existed. Why is God held to a different standard? The fact that He can reveal Himself to you does not somehow change the standard of evidence you should hold Him to. If Washington could reveal himself to you, would you demand he did before believing he existed? Disregarding abundant historical evidence to do so?
Alexander the Great and Washington can't reveal themselves to us. Supposedly God can.
Originally posted by DarfiusWell, God supposedly exists now. If someone exists now, really wants to have a close, intimate relationship with me, and is capable of getting in contact with me, why should I have to look at ancient cryptic documents to figure out if this person existed long, long ago? It doesn't make any sense.
The point was that although you have never seen those two personally, you still (presumably) believe they existed. Why is God held to a different standard? The fact that He can reveal Himself to you does not somehow change the standard of evidence you should hold Him to. If Washington could reveal himself to you, would you demand he did before believing he existed? Disregarding abundant historical evidence to do so?
Originally posted by AThousandYoungDo you not get agitated when other impose their will upon you? What if someone forbade you to eat but one kind of food? What if you were bound and gagged and prevented from going anywhere? Therefore, does free will not correlate in some way to your level of happiness?
In any case, I don't value "free will" at all. I don't even understand what people mean by it. Happiness is what matters.[/b]
Originally posted by rwingettYou assume that creation choosing to reject God is his personal will. In fact, it says in scripture that his will is that none should perish. Knowing what will happen and wanting everything that then occurs are two different animals.
When god created us he knew the exact percentage who would fail. He could have tweaked that percentage up or down while still leaving free will perfectly intact. We can only assume that god wanted the exact percentage that we see occuring all around us.
Originally posted by whodeyThat doesn't address the question of WHY a perfect being would create other beings that he KNEW would fail.
You assume that creation choosing to reject God is his personal will. In fact, it says in scripture that his will is that none should perish. Knowing what will happen and wanting everything that then occurs are two different animals.
It seems to make the universe less perfect.
Originally posted by dottewellThe key is that he is a God of love. Therefore he creates for the purpose of love. Love by its very nature demands free will, you cannot force someone to love you or program them to love you. This free will then made it possible for the fall to occur.
That doesn't address the question of WHY a perfect being would create other beings that he KNEW would fail.
It seems to make the universe less perfect.
Originally posted by whodeyYou're missing the point. He created some people who would choose (freely) to believe in him. He created some people who would choose (freely) not to believe in him. He knew at the time of creation that this would occur.
The key is that he is a God of love. Therefore he creates for the purpose of love. Love by its very nature demands free will, you cannot force someone to love you or program them to love you. This free will then made it possible for the fall to occur.
My point is that he could have created ONLY people that would choose (freely) to believe in him. By definition, this would not have jeopardised free will.