In Hell

Originally posted by TheSkipper
Yeah, I get it. But what i want to know is: Is it, or is it not possible for me to believe in Christ, but never love him, and find myself in heaven when its all over?

It is like this. God and me are incompatible. And He doesn't change. Now we are going to be together for eternity.

Now if He doesn't change and I am not compatible with Him then I must change. Oh, He will change me.

Now I can postpone such a transformation. I can drag my feet. Most of us do. I can make it take longer. But I cannot stop it.

God has a way to arrange your surroundings so that you move towards Him. If not this year you love Him, next year you may. IF not next year, maybe in three years you will.

If not in this age you love Him, He will work with you in the age to come. But before you go into eternity you will be conformed to the image of Christ. Though you postpone it because you love the world God will eventually transform you.

"Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." (Rom. 8:30)

The destiny of the saved person is to be conformed to the image of the Son of God. We who are saved are going to be like God's Son. And He loved the Father to the uttermost.

When my heart feels cold towards God I tell Him that He loves me. That is a fact. We love God because He first loved us.

By proclaiming how much He loves me my heart is softened and eventually I can also tell Him that I love Him. Actually the love in me is really from Him anyway.

Reading about Jesus in the Gospels does a lot to soften your heart towards God.

Originally posted by TheSkipper
Yeah, when I prayed my last prayer I told God that I sought but didn't find so if he wants me he is going to have to do the seeking next time, and I promise not to be so blasted hard to find as he proved to be.

So, yeah, if God comes a-knockin' I'll answer, but until then he will remain an object of mass delusion as far as I'm concerned.

Hey, ya gotta start somwhere, so I commend you for at least having an open heart because God WILL come kncking again, and I hope you receive Him. Trust me when I say I know exactly how you feel. My neuro-muscular disorder is what brought me to my knees in prayer and God answered. He instilled in me a purpose for my suffering, and I completely understand it now. Good luck.

Originally posted by dystoniac
Hey, ya gotta start somwhere, so I commend you for at least having an open heart because God WILL come kncking again, and I hope you receive Him. Trust me when I say I know exactly how you feel. My neuro-muscular disorder is what brought me to my knees in prayer and God answered. He instilled in me a purpose for my suffering, and I completely understand it now. Good luck.

Could you please share with us a little more. This sounds very interesting to me.

Today millions of Christians are saved and forgiven. But they love the world.

The world is gradually becomming less and less of an attractive place. The day will come when it is no longer a fit place for human beings to live in.

The world is passing away. The temperature is rising (in more ways than one). The world is slowly moving towards what the Bible calls the great tribulation. People sense it. The Bible tells of it.

You love the world today and think it is so lovely a place? You think you desire the present system more than Christ ? Be prepared. The world you love is being shaken. Everything is being shaken. It is passing away. It will not be so lovely some day and you will realize that there is nothing worth living for except the Lord Jesus Christ.

Why wait? We can grow in our love for Christ and His coming kingdom each day. Bit by bit. Step by step. We can grow to love Him more.

Originally posted by dystoniac
All humans, and you can deny all you want, have a yearning in their heart and soul that is constantly seeking for something...something that is missing life. No matter how wealthy or famous one becomes in this life, there is always something missing...that something is a relationship with with God. God alone can fill this void. Nothing can fill it. God ...[text shortened]... omplete until we bridge the gap that separates us from God, and that 'bridge' is Jesus Christ.

God alone can fill this void. Nothing can fill it.

Hence, God is nothing?

Originally posted by jaywill
It is like this. God and me are incompatible. And He doesn't change. Now we are going to be together for eternity.

Now if He doesn't change and I am not compatible with Him then I must change. Oh, He will change me.

Now I can postpone such a transformation. I can drag my feet. Most of us do. I can make it take longer. But I cannot stop it.

God ha ...[text shortened]... anyway.

Reading about Jesus in the Gospels does a lot to soften your heart towards God.

Right...and how does this square with any reasonable definition of free will?

Originally posted by jaywill
Could you please share with us a little more. This sounds very interesting to me.

Well, one day 4 years ago my left back muscles undernreath my scapula and deep in my back started spasming all on their own. I was in the middle of a transfer to the west coast and was on leave at the time. I was in the military at the time. I went to the doctor fearing that I had Amyolateral sclerosis (Lou Gherig Disease). I was diagnosed with dystonia. This disorder is caused when something goes awry at the basal ganglia (center in the brain from where muscles receive nerve impulses to move). It is a rare disorder (about 300,000 people in the US). There is no cure; however, it also is not life-ending, but it definitely is life-altering. The only medication that works is valium and klonopin. I spasm the whole time that I am awake, and I also 'posture', that is, I look like I'm about to break-dance any second (LOL). It's been hell and God has made me stronger because of it. It was what God used to bring me to His attention, as God sometimes does. Go to wemove.org for specific details about dystonia. I have Focal-Truncal-Dystonia. I live a normal life and able to workout, but I can't walk very far without felling like my spine is going to leave my body on its own...thanks for your interest

Originally posted by jaywill
Please show me the passage in the Bible that says God will condemn a person to damnation because he will not love God back.

I don't see that any more than I see worldly judge theatening to put the murderer in jail because he doesn't love the judge back.

Justification by [b]faith I see. I do not see justification by love.

Your view is warped.[/b]

It is a reasonable interpretation, and other theists have not objected to it. However, rather than haggle over interpretations, I prefer to expand my dictionary.

bizarro-love n.
1. The state of caring about someone so much that you will subject them to eternal anguish and torment if they refuse to love you back.
2. The state of caring about someone so much that you will subject them to eternal anguish and torment if they refuse to believe in you.

Originally posted by dystoniac
they aren't commas but exclamation marks.

http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/curriculum_literacy/tree/writing/grammarpunc/guidance/6/ ! is an exclamation mark.

EDIT: please just desist in going on in your posts about hell, damnation and peoples sexuality - there is nothing positive in it.

Originally posted by dystoniac
That is correct, but by believing in Jesus Christ one glorifies God.

Too true.

Originally posted by dystoniac
Well, one day 4 years ago my left back muscles undernreath my scapula and deep in my back started spasming all on their own. I was in the middle of a transfer to the west coast and was on leave at the time. I was in the military at the time. I went to the doctor fearing that I had Amyolateral sclerosis (Lou Gherig Disease). I was diagnosed with dyston ...[text shortened]... thout felling like my spine is going to leave my body on its own...thanks for your interest

=====================================
It's been hell and God has made me stronger because of it. It was what God used to bring me to His attention, as God sometimes does. Go to wemove.org for specific details about dystonia. I have Focal-Truncal-Dystonia. I live a normal life and able to workout, but I can't walk very far without felling like my spine is going to leave my body on its own...thanks for your interest
==================================================

That is amazing. I mean that God could reach down to your particular difficult situation (hell really) and supply you and uphold you with His grace.

Thanks for sharing that with us.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
It is a reasonable interpretation, and other theists have not objected to it. However, rather than haggle over interpretations, I prefer to expand my dictionary.

bizarro-love n.
1. The state of caring about someone so much that you will subject them to eternal anguish and torment if they refuse to love you back.
2. The state of caring about someone ...[text shortened]... much that you will subject them to eternal anguish and torment if they refuse to believe in you.

======================
bizarro-love n.
1. The state of caring about someone so much that you will subject them to eternal anguish and torment if they refuse to love you back.
2. The state of caring about someone so much that you will subject them to eternal anguish and torment if they refuse to believe in you.
=============================

I think that it is bizzare that if I go to court having commited a crime that I rail at the judge for not loving me.

"Your honor, now if you love me you have to let me go free. I may have commited a crime. I may have broken the law. But if you love me you have to let me go. Where's your love, your honor."

Or more appropriately,

"Hey you stupid judge. Why don't you just forget about it and let me out of here? Who are you anyway ? I do whatever I want. Now love me and let me get outta here!! Who do you think you are? Love me so I can get outta here and go back to doing more crimes.! "


I don't trust theists who have a concept of making God relinquish His righteousness and let His law be trampled because He loves man.

Though I admit that it is not always easy to comprehend, my undertanding is that God wonderfully coordinates His love and His rightouesness together.

It is reasonable to me that God has the attribute of infinite love and also infinite justice. It is reasonable that God will not give up His righteousness for the sake of His great love. Conversely, it is reasonable that God would not give up His love and only care for His righteousness and His law.

I believe that in Christ's act these two great attributes, God's love and God's righteousness work together.

And I don't think such a plan as Calvary came out of the imagination of human beings. Some may expect that God would relinquish His righteous nature because He loves man.

He may love me to the uttermost. But He will not give up His righteousness and His righteous law for the sake of His loving me.


He has to work His great love for me in coordination with His righteousness. On Calvary God's love and His righteousness work together to save me.

I don't see your concept taught in the Bible. I don't see that God should give up His other attibutes and only retain His love.

Maybe some can take comfort in throwing up their hands and saying "Well, everyone has an interpretation to haggle over."

At least one can drown oneself in such an attitude and put off dealing with God indefinitely.

Originally posted by jaywill
I believe that in Christ's act these two great attributes, God's love and God's righteousness work together.

But what is this bizzaro righteousness? It seems that many theists have this idea that every crime necessarily has a matching punishment and that the equation must be balanced in order for 'righteousness' to prevail. But I am yet to find anyone who can explain what this is all about. It seems to me to be little more than a mistaken understanding of human behavior regarding crime and punishment and why we do them.

Can anyone give me one good reason why God would punish someone for a crime? The claim that it is merely owed is simply not sufficient without further explanation.

The questions are not easy all to answer.

In my own experience I had to ask myself one day:


" Does Perfect exist? Does Perfection exist ?

If God is not right then who shall we go to to serve as a more perfect arbitrator to correct God? We had better regard THAT being then as God. But then does Perfection exist with THAT one ?

Do we need then to seek another arbitrator to adjust righteously THAT arbitrator to whom we have appealed to correct God.

Well then, does perfection exist with THAT one ??

If that one in turn makes an error in judgment then we have to appeal to yet another arbitrator. Shall we seek again the first arbitrator or seek another one somewhere?

Does Perfection exist ? "

My gut feel is that the Cosmic Ethical Buck has to stop somewhere. I believe it stops with God.


I think that Perfection must exist with God. Well then WHO will save us from the Perfection of an infinitely right God ? Well, this God seems to have a plan. He will.

He will sum up all guilt, all mistake, all transgression, all iniquity, all wrong doing and its associated penalties for the whole world for all men for all time throughout all human history ---- He will bundle it all together and pay the dept Himself in Jesus Christ.

Then there comes my side of the covenant. He commands me to just believe in Jesus Christ.

The blank check is provided. Any amount of funds can be specified upon it. The check has to potential to cover any amount of [human] dept.

But I have to receive the check. The check is the Son of God. The check is Christ God's Son ... He and all that He has attained and accomplished. It is all there applicable to my situation, to the situation of every human being who has ever lived and ever will live.

"And if anyone sins we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous; And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for those of the whole world." (1 John 2:1b-2)


When I worked in New York City years ago, I worked in the Pan Am Building in downtown Manhatten. I worked on one of the upper level stories of that skyscraper.

As a new Christian I sometimes would go to the window and look out over the city. I would look down on millions of people and out across the landscape for miles before me.

I would whisper to myself the promise of the New Testament:

"Behold the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world."

The Arbitrator is the Son of God. The Advocate is actually the Triune God Himself in the Son. God Himself has His way and His plan to protect sinning man from His own eternal and perfect perfection.

God in His perfection for the sinner, is like the blast of a hydrogen bomb. Jesus the Lamb of God is like our bomb shelter within which we may be spared.

My part is to enter in. I enter by believing into Christ.

Originally posted by dystoniac
Says God. Please read the Bible. I reckon I'm gonna have to start quoting scripture.

Nice return. 🙂