2 edits
Originally posted by KellyJay…Are you suggesting that
…what was its make up,
….
"[b]An extremely large mass squashed to a point -not much more that can be said about that! How would you like me to elaborate? -I don’t see how I can. "
Believe it or not I want a great deal more from you, I want to know
how much mass was in it, was there any outside of the singularity? I
want to know how "sq u give me your answer are you relying
on a belief or science for your responses too.
Kelly[/b]
there always were other singularities that had to do with the
beginning?
….
no.
I am suggesting that singularities can exist just in case you meant to imply that it couldn’t.
…I want to know
how much mass was in it
...
You think I would know this? 😛 -an expert would be able to estimate it because it would be about the same as the current mass of the universe although some of it would have been converted to energy.
…was there any outside of the singularity?
….
No. That fact has already been pointed out many times in other posts.
…I
want to know how "squashed" it was, was there an infinite amount of
space between all the squashed mass making up the singularity or
was there none, or some happy in between?
…..
Of course the wasn’t an infinite amount of space!
I don’t honestly know if you can call it literally infinitely small or if it had a finite but unimaginably small size due to quantum fluctuations -you would have to ask an expert on it because I am no such expert.
By the way, not too sure exactly what you mean by “space BETWEEN all the squashed mass”.
…What REACTIONS were
taking place in the singularity to hold it together before the Big Bang,
...(my emphasis)
None -just gravity.
…and what changed to cause the Big Bang, ...
Not sure but certain quantum fluctuations may have cause the space itself to expand? -you would have to ask an expert on this because I am not an expert.
…how long did each of those
processes take? ...
…as if I would know! -you would have to ask an expert.
….I would also like to know when you give me your answer are you relying
on a belief or science for your responses too. ..
Science -although obviously I have a ‘belief’ that scientific facts are FACTS! 😛
Originally posted by Andrew HamiltonYou honestly want to tell me we went from the very beginning, that
I have answered all your questions to the best of my ability.
What part of the topic am I "avoiding"?
event that sprung from the singularity as you describe it, and you
start talking about black holes as if that were the same topic and
you don't see why I think you are avoiding the topic?
Kelly
Originally posted by Andrew HamiltonI'm only interested in discussing the one singularity, the one you and
[b]…Are you suggesting that
there always were other singularities that had to do with the
beginning?
….
no.
I am suggesting that singularities can exist.[/b]
others believe had something to do with the beginning of all things,
if you want to talk about other singularities you are changing the
subject and avoiding the one we were on.
Kelly
1 edit
"Of course the wasn’t an infinite amount of space!
I don’t honestly know if you can call it literally infinitely small or if it had a finite but unimaginably small size due to quantum fluctuations -you would have to ask an expert on it because I am no such expert.
By the way, not too sure exactly what you mean by “space BETWEEN all the squashed mass”. "
It is simple, I recall a discussion on time once where a guy took a very
large jar of glass, put several big rocks in it and asked if it was full? He
was told,"yes." He poured in some smaller ones, asked again, now
that people knew what he was up to they said, "no". He poured in
sand, asked again, they said, "no." He poured in water, and asked
again...
I want to know if there was space between that which was in the
singularity or not? Was there any room between all the matter
within it or not?
What held it in that state?
Kelly
Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton"None -just gravity. "
[b]…Are you suggesting that
there always were other singularities that had to do with the
beginning?
….
no.
I am suggesting that singularities can exist just in case you meant to imply that it couldn’t.
…I want to know
how much mass was in it
...
You think I would know this? 😛 -an expert would be able to estimate it ...[text shortened]... o. ..[/b]
Science -although obviously I have a ‘belief’ that scientific facts are FACTS! 😛[/b]
You think gravity is that strong, exactly what was at the center at that
gravitational pull to cause that, because now we need the cause don’t
we?
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayis this the classic quantum conumdrum?
"Of course the wasn’t an infinite amount of space!
I don’t honestly know if you can call it literally infinitely small or if it had a finite but unimaginably small size due to quantum fluctuations -you would have to ask an expert on it because I am no such expert.
By the way, not too sure exactly what you mean by “space BETWEEN all the squashed mass”. ...[text shortened]... any room between all the matter
within it or not?
What held it in that state?
Kelly
When we are looking matter it appears to be paricles , when we look away matter appears to be waves.
(please excuse my crude wording)
(I would be especially interested to know what mr. Hamilton thinks)
Originally posted by KellyJay…and you
You honestly want to tell me we went from the very beginning, that
event that sprung from the singularity as you describe it, and you
start talking about black holes as if that were the same topic and
you don't see why I think you are avoiding the topic?
Kelly
start talking about black holes as if that were the same topic
….
No, I am trying to establish whether or not you think a singularity (ANY singularity) can exist -please clarify, do you think that a singularity (ANY singularity) cannot exist? -I want to know this because I want to know if it is THIS that makes you not believe there was no singularity at the beginning?
Originally posted by karoly aczelYou are confusing mass with matter -a common mistake. In the beginning there was no matter -just mass.
is this the classic quantum conumdrum?
When we are looking matter it appears to be paricles , when we look away matter appears to be waves.
(please excuse my crude wording)
(I would be especially interested to know what mr. Hamilton thinks)
Originally posted by KellyJayI believe that Andrew is mistaken about there being the mass of the universe inside the singularity. I believe big bang theory suggests that there was only raw energy and that mass was created from energy during the early stages of expansion.
I want to know if there was space between that which was in the
singularity or not? Was there any room between all the matter
within it or not?
As for your 'spaces between' question, I do not think it is decided yet whether matter is point-like in nature or wave-like or both depending on the perspective. I guess if it is point like then it may be that quarks have zero volume (I don't know that for sure), in which case there are always spaces. If they are wavelike then there are no spaces once you bring the quarks within a wavelength of each other.
But I don't see the relevance. If you want an accurate picture, then why not read a book on the subject?
Originally posted by KellyJay…I want to know if there was space between that which was in the
"Of course the wasn’t an infinite amount of space!
I don’t honestly know if you can call it literally infinitely small or if it had a finite but unimaginably small size due to quantum fluctuations -you would have to ask an expert on it because I am no such expert.
By the way, not too sure exactly what you mean by “space BETWEEN all the squashed mass”. ...[text shortened]... any room between all the matter
within it or not?
What held it in that state?
Kelly
singularity or not?
….
Your analogy of rocks in a jar doesn’t work here -there was no matter in the singularity nor subatomic particles of ANY kind nor anything that would divide that mass up into definable chunks with a definable borderline around each chunk.
Therefore, there was NO empty space at all within the singularity (I am assuming from your rocks in a jar analogy that you are referring to EMPTY space -right?)
…Was there any room between all the matter
within it or not?
...
There was no matter there. Singularities contain mass but no matter.
As for the question of whether that mass was literally squeezed in an infinite small point in space or if that “point” in space has an actual size with volume in some sense because of quantum fluctuations; as I have already said, I don’t know which is true (although I think it is more likely to be the latter) and you would have to ask an expert on it to get your answer.
…What held it in that state?
….
What aspect of that state are you referring to?
Do you mean what stopped it expanding sooner? I assume the answer is gravity.
Originally posted by twhitehead…I believe that Andrew is mistaken about there being the mass of the universe inside the singularity. I believe big bang theory suggests that there was only raw energy and that mass was created from energy during the early stages of expansion
I believe that Andrew is mistaken about there being the mass of the universe inside the singularity. I believe big bang theory suggests that there was only raw energy and that mass was created from energy during the early stages of expansion.
As for your 'spaces between' question, I do not think it is decided yet whether matter is point-like in nature or ...[text shortened]... see the relevance. If you want an accurate picture, then why not read a book on the subject?
….
Now I’m confused;
I could be wrong but I thought singularities have mass?
What is there if not mass?
…But I don't see the relevance. If you want an accurate picture, then why not read a book on the subject?
...
I was thinking of asking him a similar question -and like you I don't see the relevance!
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJay…You think gravity is that strong,
"None -just gravity. "
You think gravity is that strong, exactly what was at the center at that
gravitational pull to cause that, because now we need the cause don’t
we?
Kelly
….
Now let me think -an unimaginable vast amount of mass with an unimaginable vast amount of gravity …err, yes.
-any reason why I should think there is insufficient gravity for this? Have you done a mathematical calculation that shows there is insufficient gravity for this?
…exactly what was at the CENTRE at that
gravitational pull to cause that
….(my emphasis)
There was no “CENTRE” of the singularity (assuming that it had, in some sense, a tiny ‘volume‘, what feature would distinguish a “central” point from all the other points within that ‘volume‘?) nor was there any space around the singularity so the singularity also wasn’t in the “CENTRE” of anything (because to say something was in the “CENTRE” of something would imply that there is some kind of space around it).
Mass is what causes gravity.
…exactly what was at the centre at that
gravitational pull to cause that
because now we need the cause don’t
we? …..
Mass is what causes gravity.