@Ghost-of-a-Duke
sonship:
"The universe has always existed in SOME form, you say. Okay, I got that. "
You say I misrepresent you above. What you literally wrote was -
'I propose that the universe has always existed, in one form or another.'
There is no misrepresentation of what you wrote.
One form or another - YOU.
in SOME form - ME.
There is no sneaky misrepresentation of my understanding of what you mean.
Let's say the universe in FORM A is a different form then the universe in FORM B which is a different form from the universe FORM C.
The set of FORM A, FORM B, and FORM C. From the slither of an infinite situation, FORM B, for example is "SOME form".
Any form in the set, even if an infinite set, is SOME form.
So I represent your thought exactly that you are saying that ---
"The universe has always existed in SOME form, you say. Okay, I got that. "
True to form an immediate misquote showing you haven't got it. Not only did you misread 'one' for 'some' you even put 'SOME' in capital letters.
Capital letters is simply for emphasis.
It seems you are trying to rig the exchange so that expressing my interpretation of your concept is not allowed if it is not a verbatim quotation.
The real issue is should I apologize for saying you believe the universe was created when you clearly say it ALWAYS existed. Again, the capital letters on "ALWAYS" is simply my emphasis.
While I acknowledge that you say, if I understand you there was no creation of the universe, I am not sure you really mean no creation of the universe.
If we take a subsection of your infinite process of the universe in some form, let's say FORM N and understand it was did not exist when the universe was in FORM N-1, then was the universe in FORM N created?
H2O can be in the form of vapor, the form of liquid, the form of ice.
If the temperature is high, H2O is in the form of vapor while that same H2O in the form of liquid has not been created yet. When the temperature is right for the transformation that H2O in the FORM of liquid is created. If the temperature is dropped further, the H2O in the FORM of ice is created.
That H2O in SOME form, in one form or the other is created.
So the universe in its present form, was it created ?
Was the cause of the universe in its present form brought about by the existence of the universe in its previous form?
Now, having closely examined that sonship, and reading that I have discounted 'any' creation event, do you stand by your statement that I actually believe the universe created itself out of nothing? If not, kindly retract your false assessment of what I believe.
Having closely examined your concept it is hard to say that you are really saying there is no creation event (of any universe).
If the universe in form N-1 existed and the universe in form N did not, and then the universe in N came out of the universe in form N-1, the universe created itself in a new form.
And for back to infinite, you are holding that infinitely the universe creates itself in form after form, in SOME form.
For infinity your universe creates over and over again itself. It is hard for me to imagine that something does not exist then, but exists after then, but
creation was not involved.
I would say only God as a Life for which a greater cannot exist, is
uncreated.
Now, since each universe in its various forms is created OUT of the previous form, I couldn't say you're saying the various forms of the universe were created out of NOTHING. That I might have to retract if I charged you with that.
But you have IMO a contradiction - the universe. - ever existing and self creating.
An iterative, infinitely iterative cycle of self creation is occurring in your explanation.