In Your Mind You Know

Originally posted by josephw
I am convinced, although atheists deny it, they struggles with knowing there is a God. Those who deny the existence of God do so by continually drowning out the knowledge of God that is in them. They have developed all sorts of strategies with which to stifle the voice within, but no matter how much they try, they just can't escape the sound of the truth of that keeps crying out for the love they so desperately need, and know will come from only God.

….I am convinced, although atheists deny it, they struggles with knowing there is a God..…

Atheists don’t believe there is a god by definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist
Therefore, if “atheists” think they “know” there is a god, then, therefore, they are not atheists and atheists don’t exist 😛

But I am an atheist and I do exist and I do not think nor claim that I “know” there is a god and neither does any other atheist -therefore atheists exist and they do NOT “know“ that there is a god -live with it!

Originally posted by no1marauder
In the fairy tale of Genesis, your Monster God punishes people for thinking for themselves. What does that tell you about your religion?

The OP claims "The knowledge of God is self evident". This obviously shows he has stopped thinking about this issue in any meaningful way.

actually our loving god does not punish individuals for thinking for themselves, after all he gave them the capacity of free will, endowed them with a conscience, divine qualities like love, justice, wisdom and power. if they choose to act, think and remain independent from God that is entirely up to them, if they suffer adversity as a direct consequence of ignoring his lofty principles then the error is with themselves. what is more, you would think that any reasoning individual would be able to determine by the present state of affairs that quite clearly, humanity is inept at ruling themselves, after all how much evidence do you require? But no, the light of reason will lead us there, it will blaze upon mankind like some messianic apparition, when in fact the principles have already been established and laid down almost two thousand years ago, your error is your own for having ignored them!

actually this is a spiritual forum, for discussing spiritual matters, Russ should really make a devoid of spiritual forum, or at very least a forum for those bent on destroying others spirituality, i am sure you would flourish there.

Originally posted by no1marauder
If if makes you happy to believe such nonsense, go ahead. You are content to think that you have the Answer and need nothing else. But I suggest you consider the words of Lao Tzu:

An ant on the move does more than a dozing ox.

This acyually supports a verse in one of Peter's letters that tells us that fpr those who have never geard Rhe Word, there is hope and that God would find a way to bring him to a saving grace and knowledge of Christ. Since this often happens through missionaries (ants), we are to be supportive of the Christian ministry and its sprrad to every part of the world. (and not doze like the ox)🙂

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
actually our loving god does not punish individuals for thinking for themselves, after all he gave them the capacity of free will, endowed them with a conscience, divine qualities like love, justice, wisdom and power. if they choose to act, think and remain independent from God that is entirely up to them, if they suffer adversity as a direct conseq ...[text shortened]... st a forum for those bent on destroying others spirituality, i am sure you would flourish there.

I've heard this senseless blather before. In fact, God gives out a number of specific punishments in the Garden of Eden fairy tale.
An entity that would give an inferior creature free will but savagely punish that creature for exercising it is a Monster.

Originally posted by no1marauder
I've heard this senseless blather before. In fact, God gives out a number of specific punishments in the Garden of Eden fairy tale.
An entity that would give an inferior creature free will but savagely punish that creature for exercising it is a Monster.

if its a fairy tail, then whats you're problem? you have free will to jump from the top of a building, no wishful thinking, but you have, have you not? is it senseless to refrain from jumping? why not? because you will plummet to the ground at a rate of 9.81 meters every second and may die! is it monstrous if i try to refrain you from jumping by advising you not to jump? no, well then what are you talking about?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
if its a fairy tail, then whats you're problem? you have free will to jump from the top of a building, no wishful thinking, but you have, have you not? is it senseless to refrain from jumping? why not? because you will plummet to the ground at a rate of 9.81 meters every second and may die! is it monstrous if i try to refrain you from jumping by advising you not to jump? no, well then what are you talking about?

Your analogy is flawed. A more proper one would be if you told me to worship you, I said no thanks and you pushed me off the building. Do you think a jury would accept your defense that "well it's his fault because he didn't do what I told him to?"

Originally posted by SwissGambit
I think he's saying that there are also Christians who struggle with 'secretly' knowing there is no god. The 'doubting Thomases', as you might call them.

I struggle with doubt every day. Well not every day, as somedays I don't think about God at all.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Your analogy is flawed. A more proper one would be if you told me to worship you, I said no thanks and you pushed me off the building. Do you think a jury would accept your defense that "well it's his fault because he didn't do what I told him to?"

oh number one, my learned friend, that is not what happened! It is not a case of i pushing you from the building, but you choosing to jump, for you have free will, i cannot force you not to jump nor do i push you, but only warn you of the consequences of your own action, thus the error remains your own, and as time goes on, millions of people jump and there is a huge pile of corpses all crying out, you made us jump! when in fact it was through their own volition that they jumped not because i pushed them!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
oh number one, my learned friend, that is not what happened! It is not a case of i pushing you from the building, but you choosing to jump, for you have free will, i cannot force you not to jump nor do i push you, but only warn you of the consequences of your own action, thus the error remains your own, and as time goes on, millions of people jump an ...[text shortened]... ump! when in fact it was through their own volition that they jumped not because i pushed them!

Your claim is nonsense. God punishes in your sick theology; first, by various unpleasantries in life (pain in childbirth, unproductive crops in the Eden fairy tale) and then by eternal suffering/ and or destruction.

My analogy holds: God says you can do what you want, but if you do what I don't want you to, I'll push you off the building. This is no different from holding a gun to someone's head and "asking" them to exercise their free will by doing exactly what you want or you will blow their brains out. A claim that it was they who decided to have their brains blown out is unconvincing to say the least.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Your claim is nonsense. God punishes in your sick theology; first, by various unpleasantries in life (pain in childbirth, unproductive crops in the Eden fairy tale) and then by eternal suffering/ and or destruction.

My analogy holds: God says you can do what you want, but if you do what I don't want you to, I'll push you off the buildi ...[text shortened]... at it was they who decided to have their brains blown out is unconvincing to say the least.

No.1, my dear sir, (do you notice how patient i am trying to be with you), it is another duck season rabbit season argument. i would hardly call giving someone life, situating them in a paradise, giving them the ability to live forever, dominion over the earth, freewill and a perfect mind to exercise it, unloving, would you? you need to extricate yourself from your negativity and violent thoughts, the error was their own and the initial analogy and assertion that humans have not benefited one iota from moral independence is self evident, or perhaps you can show Gods harsh legalistic regime with its plethora of legal traps waiting to catch the unwary, for as far as i can determine all he wanted was for the original couple to be happy and productive. this has not changed, the earth has the propensity to be a paradise and will become one again, is it not beautiful?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
No.1, my dear sir, (do you notice how patient i am trying to be with you), it is another duck season rabbit season argument. i would hardly call giving someone life, situating them in a paradise, giving them the ability to live forever, dominion over the earth, freewill and a perfect mind to exercise it, unloving, would you? you need to extricate y ...[text shortened]... d, the earth has the propensity to be a paradise and will become one again, is it not beautiful?

Ask the Midianites or the people in Jericho how nice your supposed God was.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Ask the Midianites or the people in Jericho how nice your supposed God was.

actually my dear sir, they made themselves enemies of god, for if you read the passages you will realize that all the Israelites wanted to do was get a safe passage through the land, they were prepared to buy food, water and provisions, they were refused and made themselves enemies, the error was their own! does the clay pot say to the potter, who are you to make me, no? does the potter not exercise dominion over the pot, if he finds that it is defective or unfit for an honorable purpose, can he not dash it to pieces as he sees fit? or perhaps the pot says to him, you have no right to do anything with me, i am my own pot, be gone with you you pestilent fellow, to think, is absurd, is it not?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
actually my dear sir, they made themselves enemies of god, for if you read the passages you will realize that all the Israelites wanted to do was get a safe passage through the land, they were prepared to buy food, water and provisions, they were refused and made themselves enemies, the error was their own!

31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

What had the children done to prevent their passage and if they were innocent why did they deserve to die?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
actually my dear sir, they made themselves enemies of god, for if you read the passages you will realize that all the Israelites wanted to do was get a safe passage through the land, they were prepared to buy food, water and provisions, they were refused and made themselves enemies, the error was their own! does the clay pot say to the potter, who a ...[text shortened]... with me, i am my own pot, be gone with you you pestilent fellow, to think, is absurd, is it not?

You obviously never read the pasages in question.

Pots aren't sentient beings capable of suffering. Do you kill your children every time they don't do as they are told?

Originally posted by no1marauder
You obviously never read the pasages in question.

Pots aren't sentient beings capable of suffering. Do you kill your children every time they don't do as they are told?

so now you are able to tell what i have and have not read, do you also do the lottery, may be worth while making use of your skills of divination.

for the record, God does not arbitrarily destroy anyone, quite the contrary, he reasoned with Abraham concerning the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, let me state that again, God the creator of the universe condescended to reason with a mortal human being.

numbers 20:14-21 reads,  

Subsequently Moses sent messengers from Kadesh to the king of Edom: “This is what your brother Israel has said, ‘You yourself well know all the hardship that has overtaken us. And our fathers proceeded to go down to Egypt, and we continued to dwell in Egypt many days; and the Egyptians began doing harm to us and our fathers. Finally we cried out to Jehovah and he heard our voice and sent an angel and brought us out of Egypt; and here we are in Kadesh, a city at the extremity of your territory. Let us pass, please, through your land. We shall not pass through a field or a vineyard, and we shall not drink the water of a well. On the king’s road we shall march. We shall not bend toward the right or the left, until we shall pass through your territory.

However, Edom said to him: “You must not pass through me, for fear I may come out with the sword to meet you.” In turn the sons of Israel said to him: “By the highway we shall go up; and if I and my livestock should drink your water, I shall also certainly give the value of it. I want nothing more than to pass through on my feet.” Still he said: “You must not pass through.” With that Edom came on out to encounter him with a great many people and a strong hand. So Edom refused to grant Israel to pass through his territory. Hence Israel turned away from him.

quite a reasonable stance dont you think, also with regard to the Canaanites, the holy scriptures state the following,

'Now the Canaanite the king of Arad, who dwelt in the Negeb, got to hear that Israel had come by the way of Atharim, and he began to fight with Israel and carry away some of them as captives.', Numbers 21:1

also, with regard to the ammonites, it is written

Israel now sent messengers to Sidhon the king of the Amorites, saying:  “Let me pass through your land. We shall not turn off into a field or a vineyard. We shall drink water of no well. On the kings road we shall march until we pass through your territory.” And Sidhon did not allow Israel to pass through his territory, but Sihon gathered all his people and went out to meet Israel in the wilderness, and came to Jahaz and began fighting with Israel. At that Israel struck him with the edge of the sword and took possession of his land from the Arnon to the Jabbok, near the sons of Ammon; because Jazer is the border of the sons of Ammon. Numbers 21:21-24

once again you will notice the request for quarter, whence none was given!

those who were killed by the sword or divine intervention brought it upon themselves!