Is Atheism Dead ?

@kellyjay said
I believe the only thing we can say while looking at only life is that it couldn't have come into being, it couldn't have maintained itself, it would have never evolved due to a mindless, indifferent process, with no goal, targets, desires, cares, awareness of success and failures. It takes an agency a mind to write code, maintain code, and create specialized specified compl ...[text shortened]... cause we do know a mind is required to do these types of things because we do these types of things.

Oh dear. I will ask you again. It's a specific question and it's a point blank response to the post of yours I quoted.

Do those "mechanisms in life" you refer to represent evidence that all non-Christian religions can point to as proof that their deity is the "designer ... with the capabilities to design both the universe and life"?

At it's heart, it is a yes/no question with a yes/no answer.

@kellyjay said
I'm not the one changing the subject, taking a discussion on what we see in the universe and backdooring someone else with a different topic that wasn't part of what they were discussing.

None of the points you have raised regarding "mechanisms, processes, odds, requirements" of the universe in any way comprise a rational argument to suggest a created universe. That you use the phrase "without a doubt" when you assert that they do very clearly declares that you are not basing your argument on these points at all, so please don't pretend that you are.

Also, I have just taken the time to read though the conversation we have been having to confirm, and I absolutely have not changed the subject or introduced any topic which wasn't already part of the discussion.

@avalanchethecat said
None of the points you have raised regarding "mechanisms, processes, odds, requirements" of the universe in any way comprise a rational argument to suggest a created universe. That you use the phrase "without a doubt" when you assert that they do very clearly declares that you are not basing your argument on these points at all, so please don't pretend that you ...[text shortened]... ly have not changed the subject or introduced any topic which wasn't already part of the discussion.

You have a rational explanation, outside of I don't know, based upon what we see? Do you have any hope of ever coming up with one, and if you do, what are you pinning your hopes on?

@fmf said
Oh dear. I will ask you again. It's a specific question and it's a point blank response to the post of yours I quoted.

Do those "mechanisms in life" you refer to represent evidence that all non-Christian religions can point to as proof that their deity is the "designer ... with the capabilities to design both the universe and life"?

At it's heart, it is a yes/no question with a yes/no answer.

Yes, non-specific.

@kellyjay said
You have a rational explanation, outside of I don't know, based upon what we see? Do you have any hope of ever coming up with one, and if you do, what are you pinning your hopes on?

We don't even yet have a complete coherent picture of the make-up of the universe or indeed of ourselves. The picture we do have, however, is becoming more accurate and detailed with every passing year, and I've little doubt that if we manage to avoid destroying ourselves or our technological civilization, we will eventually accrue the necessary knowledge to answer these questions. There is certainly no rational call to make the assumption that because we don't know all the answers right now, that 'god' did it.

@kellyjay said
Yes, non-specific.

To be clear, "universe and life" are evidence that ALL non-Christian religions can point to as proof that the deity they worship - and not just the one you happen to believe in - is the creator being? You are answering yes?

@avalanchethecat said
You are looking at the universe through a scripture-flavoured prism. You have the answer you want already and you're just looking for ways to confirm it. There is no way you could arrive at the idea of a god you believe in without the 'evidence' of your scripture.

<<You are looking at the universe through a scripture-flavoured prism. You have the answer you want already and you're just looking for ways to confirm it.>>

If anyone does this, it’s the evolutionist.

@avalanchethecat said
We don't even yet have a complete coherent picture of the make-up of the universe or indeed of ourselves. The picture we do have, however, is becoming more accurate and detailed with every passing year, and I've little doubt that if we manage to avoid destroying ourselves or our technological civilization, we will eventually accrue the necessary knowledge to answer th ...[text shortened]... call to make the assumption that because we don't know all the answers right now, that 'god' did it.

Really, exactly what do you think we are missing? I don't need to see a whole book to know when I read the first page an author wrote it, so precisely what do you think we need to see to explain the coding in life, the fine-tuning of the universe, that we are missing?

@fmf said
To be clear, "universe and life" are evidence that ALL non-Christian religions can point to as proof that the deity they worship - and not just the one you happen to believe in - is the creator being? You are answering yes?

I have said yes to that in several ways; you require one more?

@kellyjay said
Really, exactly what do you think we are missing? I don't need to see a whole book to know when I read the first page an author wrote it, so precisely what do you think we need to see to explain the coding in life, the fine-tuning of the universe, that we are missing?

I'm sorry, are you seriously asking me what things we don't know? Are you under the impression that science is all finished and complete?

@kellyjay said
I have said yes to that in several ways; you require one more?

The reason I pressed you to be unequivocal is that you quite simply did not seem to understand the question at first and, instead, just resorted to rehashing the same opinions again about which I was seeking clarification.

@kellyjay said
I have said yes to that in several ways; you require one more?

There is no need to get flustered.

Three questions arising...

1. So, are "the mechanics of life and the universe" STRONGER evidence of the existence of a creator being THAN the evidence your religion's scriptures layout?

2. And, are "the mechanics of life and the universe" evidence that "the creator being", if there is one, has revealed itself, its wishes, its promises and its threats, to humans through scripture?

3. In other words, temporarily seeking to decouple the Christian God and Christian scripture from "the mechanics of life and the universe" and from "the creator being" [if there is one] ~ for the purposes of expediency in a debate ~ achieves WHAT exactly with regard to your own assertions about how the Christian God, specifically, has revealed Himself to you?

@fmf said
The reason I pressed you to be unequivocal is that you quite simply did not seem to understand the question at first and, instead, just resorted to rehashing the same opinions again about which I was seeking clarification.

So you wanted me to be clear; I hope we are at this point. I believe I was being clear, looking solely at the universe nothing more a mindless process, and indifferent mindless process, a goalless mindless process, an undirected mindless process cannot do what we see around us. This does not point to anything other than someone/something that has direction, a goal, a design, and that is too vague to say this one, not that one did it. Hope we are at least good on that one point.

@kellyjay said
So you wanted me to be clear; I hope we are at this point. I believe I was being clear

No, you were pointedly not answering my pointed question. You have now repeated the same stuff about "design" and "mindless" processes for a third time. The three questions I have posed above are another opportunity for you to be clear.