1. Joined
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    02 Dec '09 08:32
    I recently entered into a debate about the abraham incident. You mostly know it:
    Abraham had only a son, God wanted to test abe's faith(as if he didn't know it already) so he asked him to kill that son(Isaac). Abraham did so and just as he was about to butcher the isaac, god stopped him and said: "now i finally know what is in your heart thanks to this test because reading your mind or knowing the future is way out of my league. you don't really have to kill him" Happy ending, nobody gets hurt(except for the poor goat/sheep whatever sacrificed instead), riches are given to abe and so on.

    Now for the purpose of this debate, let's assume god exists. My questions are initially these:
    -How do we know when god is speaking to us?
    Surely the people of ancient times gave more meaning to their dreams but still didn't do anything they dreamt. I am sure abe had once a dream where god asked him to cover himself in leaves and then clock like a chicken. did he do it? did god came with a follow up dream to tell him not to? or did abe used common sense and dismissed the dream? and if so why didn't he dismissed the "kill your son" dream.
    Also can't satan disguise himself as god and ask abe to go on a killing spree to prove his faith?

    Which leads me to the second question:
    -Is god allowed to break his own rules? Should he? Would he be a jerk if he does?
    He tells us killing is wrong. He forbidds killing. What manner of a test is "kill your son"? Can you imagine? "abe, i want you to kill your son to prove your faith." "But god, you said no killing" "Forget what i said, i say now kill your son". Is going against the teachings of god, even at his request, considered an act of faith?

    Which leads me to the third question:
    -Would you worship the supreme being if he asked you to murder babies each month?
    Suppose now comes a immensely powerful being capable of anything. for all you know, he is omnipotent. he demands human sacrifices, raping children and leaving food caseroles in the office fridge until they go sentient. Would you worship him? or would you rather die than worship an evil god? Even assuming that god(the omnipotent, godlike creature newly arrived that the christian god is not stopping) is assuring anyone that it is for the greater good whatever he is demanding and we should do it because our puny intellect cannot comprehend his plan?
  2. Joined
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    02 Dec '09 08:37
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    I recently entered into a debate about the abraham incident. You mostly know it:
    Abraham had only a son, God wanted to test abe's faith(as if he didn't know it already) so he asked him to kill that son(Isaac). Abraham did so and just as he was about to butcher the isaac, god stopped him and said: "now i finally know what is in your heart thanks to this tes ...[text shortened]... ng and we should do it because our puny intellect cannot comprehend his plan?
    "How do we know when god is speaking to us?"
    We don't. If we hear voices in our heads we should go to the the shrink. They know what to do. Many revelations is given us from our subconsious, under influences of drugs or some psychriatic illness.

    "Is god allowed to break his own rules? Should he? Would he be a jerk if he does?"
    Not if he wants to be trusted. And yes, he's a jerk if he tries to. This is not the kind of god I would have chose to worship.

    "Would you worship the supreme being if he asked you to murder babies each month?"
    No way. Only fools would.

    There are alternatives to worship an evil god.
  3. Cape Town
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    02 Dec '09 09:031 edit
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    -How do we know when god is speaking to us?
    Way more important is the question: how do we know when God has spoken to somebody else? (and that he/she is reporting the event accurately).
  4. Joined
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    02 Dec '09 09:151 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Way more important is the question: how do we know when God has spoken to somebody else? (and that he/she is reporting the event accurately).
    A good question. Indeed it is.

    God spoke to Mohammed (or so he said) and founded Islam.
    God spoke to Jesus (or so he said) and founded Christianity.
    God spoke to Charles Russel (or so he said) and founded Jehovas Witness.
    God spoke to Joseph Smith (or so he said) and founded the Mormon movement.
    Do I need to continue?
    Oh yes, we have a lot of small cults, to whom God spoke (or so they say), including suicide cults, martyre cults, snake worshipping cults, etc etc etc...

    So if I say that God speaks to me in a dayly basis, to tell me that he finds all christians silly, who would believe me? Perhaps I should write a new holy book with interpretations directly from god (or so I say)...
  5. Joined
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    02 Dec '09 09:16
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Way more important is the question: how do we know when God has spoken to somebody else? (and that he/she is reporting the event accurately).
    well yes that is a question for religions in general. this thread i intended more about the personal religious experience and more explicit the abraham incident.

    my view is that abraham was weak instead of strong and should have been punished instead of rewarded. the real test was defying god's wish or not on an issue god himself has put forth.
  6. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    02 Dec '09 10:42
    Originally posted by FabianFnas

    God spoke to Mohammed (or so he said) and founded Islam.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mohammed (pbuh) supposedly received the Word via Gabriel.
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    02 Dec '09 10:51
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mohammed (pbuh) supposedly received the Word via Gabriel.
    some say(Dogma screenplay) that if god were to speak to you directly you would explode. so basically god speaking through gabriel is still god speaking. technically.

    but yes, you are right. we have one entity claiming to be god or speaking on behalf of god telling you something. and the question is how are we supposed to deal with that something.
  8. Joined
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    02 Dec '09 10:51
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mohammed (pbuh) supposedly received the Word via Gabriel.
    I might answer: "Who says? Mohammed himself?", and by this my answer stands as before.
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    02 Dec '09 11:411 edit
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    A good question. Indeed it is.

    God spoke to Mohammed (or so he said) and founded Islam.
    God spoke to Jesus (or so he said) and founded Christianity.
    God spoke to Charles Russel (or so he said) and founded Jehovas Witness.
    God spoke to Joseph Smith (or so he said) and founded the Mormon movement.
    Do I need to continue?
    Oh yes, we have a lot of smal ...[text shortened]... ? Perhaps I should write a new holy book with interpretations directly from god (or so I say)...
    when did God speak to Charles Russell? Did Russell ever claim to be inspired of God, nope? you are talking nonsense again in this regard Fabian, retract the statement! There have been witnesses of Jehovah for thousands of years prior to the emergence of the modern day organisation, in fact the very name, is derived from the book of Isaiah, written approximately one thousand five hundred years before Christ.

    (Isaiah 43:10) . . . “you are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that you may know and have faith in me, and that you may understand that I am the same One. . . .
  10. Joined
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    02 Dec '09 13:21
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    when did God speak to Charles Russell? Did Russell ever claim to be inspired of God, nope? you are talking nonsense again in this regard Fabian, retract the statement! There have been witnesses of Jehovah for thousands of years prior to the emergence of the modern day organisation, in fact the very name, is derived from the book of Isaiah, written a ...[text shortened]... hat you may know and have faith in me, and that you may understand that I am the same One. . . .
    Did god never speak to Russel? Didn't god answer Russel's prayers?

    No, you're right. God does not answer prayers. Because god does not exist. And everything based on that delution is wrong.

    Is this what you wanted to say?
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    02 Dec '09 13:22
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    ..
    God spoke to Joseph Smith (or so he said) and founded the Mormon movement.
    ...
    God does not stop Abrahm from slaying Issac. An angel intervenes.

    God does not speak to Joseph Smith. Moroni does.

    Small details, but very large details as well. Details with immense theological implications. The question remains and is a good one, though.
  12. Cape Town
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    02 Dec '09 13:24
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    when did God speak to Charles Russell? Did Russell ever claim to be inspired of God, nope? you are talking nonsense again in this regard Fabian, retract the statement! There have been witnesses of Jehovah for thousands of years prior to the emergence of the modern day organisation, in fact the very name, is derived from the book of Isaiah, written a ...[text shortened]... hat you may know and have faith in me, and that you may understand that I am the same One. . . .
    One wonders then how you can be a witness if you have not witnessed anything.
  13. Joined
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    02 Dec '09 13:25
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Did god never speak to Russel? Didn't god answer Russel's prayers?

    No, you're right. God does not answer prayers. Because god does not exist. And everything based on that delution is wrong.

    Is this what you wanted to say?
    ok so off-topic remarks and some personal attack. that latter coming from who it comes is no surprise but moving on.

    like i said, this topic is about the personal religious belief, what you choose to believe if a voice claiming to be god speaks to you. about what you should believe. lines that you will or won't cross. it is about abe and whether or not his behaviour had merit.

    we are not even in the second page of the topic and we are deviating.
  14. Account suspended
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    02 Dec '09 13:43
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    One wonders then how you can be a witness if you have not witnessed anything.
    onw wonders how someone with a degree in mathematics cannot or will not calculate the probability of getting twenty from a hundred in the correct sequence!
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    02 Dec '09 13:441 edit
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    ok so off-topic remarks and some personal attack. that latter coming from who it comes is no surprise but moving on.

    like i said, this topic is about the personal religious belief, what you choose to believe if a voice claiming to be god speaks to you. about what you should believe. lines that you will or won't cross. it is about abe and whether or not h ...[text shortened]... behaviour had merit.

    we are not even in the second page of the topic and we are deviating.
    My points stands clear.

    Many have heard voices from someone they call god, and start a new religion, a new movement, or a new cult. If the voice of god speaks so differently from ear to ear, then who will ever now which voice from god is the real one?

    If people want to challenge detals of my posting, then I'm not deviating.

    A friend of mine heard voices. He got cured by Mallorol. No Mallorol was known at the time of Abe. If one strange voice inside my head told me to cut the head off my son, then I would go looking for Mallorol too.

    So anyone wanting to challenge my opinion in the matter - feel free to do so, but, for gods sake, stay within topic!
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