1. Greece
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    21 May '22 05:46
    KellyJay has famously asserted that science cannot explain where gravity comes from or what causes it.

    Let’s suspend or ignore 350 years of scientific research for a moment and imagine that science hasn’t yet explained gravity.

    To your way of thinking, would gravity then be proof of a creator?
  2. SubscriberFMF
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    21 May '22 06:17
    @divegeester said
    To your way of thinking, would gravity then be proof of a creator?
    I don't think gravity is proof of a creator. I don't think the nature of the universe is proof that it was created.

    But I am willing to accept that gravity, and the universe it's part of, can be framed as evidence of a creator entity.

    Does anthropomorphizing such an entity generate evidence of anything?

    I'd say yes, but only in so far as it is a glimpse into the reality of the human condition.
  3. R
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    21 May '22 18:451 edit
    @divegeester

    To your way of thinking, would gravity then be proof of a creator?


    Whether scienctists can explain it or not, I would lean towards the existence of gravity to be evidence of God's existence.

    I would lean towards gravity being for His plan to have a world with living things n it, at the pinnacle of which is man made in His image.

    It is part of His care, His love, His ordering, His purposeful arrangement of the creation for humanity.

    And to those who think that is too anthropomorphic or man-centered in a presumptious or naive way, I would say -

    Man IS the spiritual and philosophical center of the universe. There is nothing else on the planet or anywhere we can yet find like human beings. It is no brag. It is just fact.

    The brief account of creation and restoration of the environment reveal things prepared FOR man. Genesis in its brief and economical design shows an ordering, caring, arranging God with a purposeful goal of making a suitable environment for humanity.

    Humanity, apart from all other lives, are created in the image of God and according to the likeness of God. Gravity I think is one of the billions of items designed and finely calibrated for the purpose of furnishing human beings with a suitable arena to live and exist. No brag. Just fact.

    Sure, I would take gravity as purposely created for God's eternal purposes with man made in His image and given deputy authority over His creation. (Not counting the fall of man into the opposition party against God, latter).
  4. R
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    21 May '22 18:51
    There are many passages in the Bible on creation. I also like Zechariah 12:1 which shows a sequence:

    The heavens were stretched out.
    The foundation of the earth was lain.
    Man was made on the earth.
    Man was made with a spirit within him to contact, comune with, and fellowship with his Creator.

    "The burden of the word of Jehovah concerning Israel. Thus declares Jehovah, who stretches forth the heavens and lays the foundation of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him." (Zech. 12:1)

    The heavens are for the earth.
    Earth is for man.
    Man has a spirit within him and is for God.
  5. R
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    21 May '22 18:52
    @FMF
    But I am willing to accept that gravity, and the universe it's part of, can be framed as evidence of a creator entity.


    Good.
    A wise move imo.
  6. R
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    21 May '22 19:113 edits
    Jesus (remember Jesus?) . . . saying and ACTING like He is the Son of God taught that God is PURPOSEFULLY aware of the creation of man even to the point of knowing how many hairs are on each head !!

    " But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: you are of more value than many sparrows. " (Luke 12:7)

    You pull out a single hair from your head. God is aware of the exact number that hair is. Do you think He doesn't know about gravity which He has arranged for our existence on earth?

    He created many birds. He has many sparrows. As nice as they are, man is of more value to the Creator than the precious birds. He said so.

    " Fear not therefore: you are of more value than many sparrows."

    That is not saying sparrows are no good.
    That is saying that comparitavely human beings are more precious to God than the sparrows.

    Jesus (remember Jesus?) said not a sparrow falls to the ground and God is not unaware of the misfortune.

    "Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father." (Matt. 10:29 KJV)

    You see a dead bird in the woods? God the Father knows about the life and death of that bird. Not one falls to the earth to die without the knowledge of our heavenly Father. That is amazing. But we're dealing with God.

    Jesus, assured that the Creator would provide all necessary things if we would "seek first His kingdom and His righteousness."

    Seek FIRST.
    Seek FIRST.
    Seek FIRST the Son of God said, His kingdom and His righteousness (the Father's) and all things else would fall totally in line and provision for life will be undamaged and abundantly furnished.

    "Therefore do not be anxious, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, With what shall we be clothed? For all these things the Gentiles are anciously seeking. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.

    But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you." (Matt. 6:31-33)


    The Creator wants us to get our PRIORITIES rigjht.
    His adminsitration and His kingdom and His government we should seek first.
    This is because creation is FOR this purpose.
  7. Standard membervivify
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    21 May '22 19:121 edit
    Saying gravity is evidence of a creator is like saying "everything" is evidence of a creator, since anything with mass has gravity.

    Gravity is simply a natural effect of mass; so by that logic, random dust floating in space is "evidence" of a creator; clouds of gas thinly spread out in space would be "evidence", and so on.
  8. Standard memberKellyJay
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    21 May '22 19:14
    @vivify said
    Saying gravity is evidence of a creator is like saying "everything" is evidence of a creator, since anything with mass has gravity.

    Gravity is simply a natural effect of mass; so by that logic, random dust floating in space is "evidence" of a creator; clouds of gas hanging spread out in space would "evidence", and so on.
    Everything is evidence of a creator. I do believe I have said that! 🙂
  9. R
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    21 May '22 19:271 edit
    @vivify

    Saying gravity is evidence of a creator is like saying "everything" is evidence of a creator, since anything with mass has gravity.


    I would say that if ANYTHING exists then SOMETHING had to exist for eternity.

    Everything borrowing its existence from some previous something has to have the buck stop somewhere - somewhere where something as the source of all things is self-existing and uncreated.

    Think about it.
    If all things derive their existence from a previous cause then there must be an uncaused Source which didn't create itself and is eternal - having ALWAYS been.

    God.
  10. R
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    21 May '22 19:272 edits

    Gravity is simply a natural effect of mass; so by that logic, random dust floating in space is "evidence" of a creator; clouds of gas hanging spread out in space would "evidence", and so on.


    It may be simple eventually.
    But it is there for man.

    Check yourself. The next time you see a photograph of the surface of the planet Mars. Check your eyes and your heart.

    I wager that you stare at that picture of the desolate planet's surface searching for something that reminds you of earth, life, man's world.

    I wager that that is the intuitive sense in your heart that creation was arrange for human life. It just seems without this the planet is so waste, void, empty. Maybe there was something there once before the rebellion of Satan. But I speculate.

    I don't know for certain.
    But I think the innate sensation that creation is arranged for US with life support systems like water, gravity, vegetation, clouds, rain, green, other lives . . . etc.

    It is not egocentric. It is realism.
    The whole big created thing was made for man.
    And man was made for God.
    And God BECAME a man and dwelt among us to redeem us and make sons of God out of us.

    The next time you observe Mars or some other planet or moon's surface check the longing in your being to SEE order, friendly environment, and necessary furnishings for human existence.

    It is an intuitive instinct within our hearts and spirits and conscience.
  11. Standard membervivify
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    21 May '22 20:363 edits
    @sonship said
    The whole big created thing was made for man.
    The size of observable universe is 46 billion light years across; the entire universe is 93 billion light years.

    If the "whole big created thing" was "made for man", why does most of the universe lie outside of what man can see?
  12. R
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    21 May '22 20:593 edits
    @vivify

    The size of observable universe is 46 billion light years; the entire universe is 93 billion light years across.


    It is a testimony to the unsearchable vastness of the love of the Triune God.
    It is a signpost impossible for us to totally grasp with our finiteness.

    It is stamp of the Creators infinite power, eternal and divine characteristics.
    Even the very timing of how man become more capable of observing this is under the sovereign control of God.

    Even the situation within the galaxy is arranged for our maximum observability.
    God kept watch over the advancement of our technology.
    God kept watch over the development of our ability to discover.
    He is ever one step ahead of man.

    We are place WHERE we can see His handiwork.
    We are place WHEN we can see His handiwork
    Knowing beforehand our inventions, curiosity, and thirst for discovery He TIMED our arrival in the universe for maximum observability.

    In short, God has arranged the universe and our position, place, and timing IN it to blow our minds. Its not so bad once you realize He is just ever a step ahead of His creatures.
  13. R
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    21 May '22 20:592 edits

    If the "whole big created thing" was "made for man", why does most of the universe lie outside of what man can see?


    For the blowing of thy mind my friend.
    For the sheer blowing of thy mind in awe that He is God.

    Now listen. Try this.

    1.) Try to imagine the universe having a limit, a boundary and an end.

    2.) Now conversely, try to imagine the universe with NO end and NO boundary and NO limit.

    Both are hard to imagine.
    Both scenarios are a challenge to our finite minds.

    Its not so bad once you understand the program. It is like the eternal God says "Little man, Go find out ALL the stuff you can. And I STILL have more to blow your mind."

    Job 26:14 "Indeed, these are but the fringes of His ways;
    And how small a whisper do we hear of Him!
    But as for the thundering of His mightiness, who can comprehend it? "


    Study science all you can.
    But to really understand the nature of the universe you have to study the Son of
    God - Jesus Christ. the mingling and union of God and man.
  14. Standard membervivify
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    21 May '22 22:15
    @sonship said
    @vivify

    Saying gravity is evidence of a creator is like saying "everything" is evidence of a creator, since anything with mass has gravity.


    I would say that if ANYTHING exists then SOMETHING had to exist for eternity.

    Everything borrowing its existence from some previous something has to have the buck stop somewhere - somewhere where somethin ...[text shortened]... must be an uncaused Source which didn't create itself and is eternal - having ALWAYS been.

    God.
    Your belief that scientists think everything came from nothing is wrong. All matter that exists always existed in some form.
  15. Standard memberKellyJay
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    21 May '22 22:26
    @vivify said
    The size of observable universe is 46 billion light years across; the entire universe is 93 billion light years.

    If the "whole big created thing" was "made for man", why does most of the universe lie outside of what man can see?
    As a sign, our Creator is grander than we can imagine or comprehend.
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