Is Jesus God? – Logical questions that need answers Part 1

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Question #1: If Jesus is God, how could he die for our sins?
1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
God cannot die, yet Jesus was killed and then resurrected (Acts 5:30). The Bible does not say that only his “human nature” died; it says that Jesus died, which would include ...[text shortened]... a clear contradiction. Fortunately, Jesus is the human Son of God, so there is no contradiction.

Jesus is not a "God-Man" or "Man-God".

Jesus is both God and man. Fully God and fully man. Try to think of it that way once. Jesus is God, and Jesus is a man, but not a "God-Man" as some try to portray Him. It's the same thing when trying to understand the Godhead. We know God is three distinct persons, yet God is one God. God became a man. A man didn't become God. Jesus is a man and Jesus is God.

When you were a man you became a husband and a father. You are not a "husband-father" or a "father-husband". You are a man who is a husband and a father. In this same way Jesus is God that became man. He is God. He is man.

That's all we need to know. That is all there is to know. Get that and then you will know all you need to know.

Jesus is both God and man. Fully God and fully man. Try to think of it that way once. Jesus is God, and Jesus is a man, but not a "God-Man" as some try to portray Him.

God-man as is used by many means precisely what you want to mean.

God-man used as I have read means completely what you write below about Jesus being fully God and fully man. Where or why you think something else is meant by God-man, I don't know.

Possibly someone used the phrase God-Man to mean something not quite God and/or not quite man. But I certainly don't mean God-man in that way.

It's the same thing when trying to understand the Godhead. We know God is three distinct persons, yet God is one God. God became a man. A man didn't become God. Jesus is a man and Jesus is God.

I would say that both occurred. After His resurrection this man went back to the throne wearing the glorified humanity. That is something He did not have before.

The Word became flesh. This is God became a man. But then in resurrection He was "born" the Firstborn Son of God. He came one way. He returned with a kind of humanity on the throne of the universe which He had not possessed before.

This was an elevation of humanity into God. He wears forever this new resurrected, glorified, uplifted human nature which He had not before.

So Athansius (the so called "father of orthodoxy" ) said God became man so that man might become God.

The resurrection and glorification of Christ was in this sense a man uplifted as man becoming God.

And as the Firstborn in resurrection Paul says that He is "the beginning" and the Head of the church. He came not only to save man but to uplift man into a mingling of God and man as one.

In that sense He became God and the sons of God follow Him to become God in life and nature but not in the Godhead.

When you were a man you became a husband and a father. You are not a "husband-father" or a "father-husband". You are a man who is a husband and a father. In this same way Jesus is God that became man. He is God. He is man.

I don't really grasp your point here Joseph. Why am I not a father-husband ? I am both a husband and a father.

That's all we need to know. That is all there is to know. Get that and then you will know all you need to know.

I certainly hope checkbaiter is helped. As for me, the phrase God-man is perfectly valid when meant that Jesus is fully God and fully man, which is the manner in which I have seen it used hundreds of times.

Thomas called out to the man Jesus "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28) So what is wrong with saying the Lord Jesus is God-man ?

Originally posted by RJHinds
I was not trying to prove He was God here. I was only trying to prove that He claimed to be dead and was now alive. If you claim He was not dead then one of you are lying.

The Instructor

I never said he was not dead. I am saying if he was God, he could not be dead. God cannot die. So you are making my point.

Originally posted by josephw
Jesus is not a "God-Man" or "Man-God".

Jesus is both God and man. Fully God and fully man. Try to think of it that way once. Jesus is God, and Jesus is a man, but not a "God-Man" as some try to portray Him. It's the same thing when trying to understand the Godhead. We know God is three distinct persons, yet God is one God. God became a man. A man didn't b ...[text shortened]... That is all there is to know. Get that and then you will know all you need to know.

This is not my first go around on this matter. I have also heard it said think of water, ice and snow, its like that.
Well for about 35 years now, it still does not make sense, it is illogical, the Word of God is being twisted by men to accept a Trinity. The bible had many opportunities to clear this up, but it does not. On the contrary, the case for one God and one Lord is much stronger.
When Jesus tells me he is God, I will believe it.

Originally posted by sonship

Jesus is both God and man. Fully God and fully man. Try to think of it that way once. Jesus is God, and Jesus is a man, but not a "God-Man" as some try to portray Him.

God-man as is used by many means precisely what you want to mean.

God-man used as I have read means completely what you write below about Jesus being fully God and ful ...[text shortened]... (John 20:28) So what is wrong with saying the Lord Jesus is God-man ?[/b]

my lord and my god, same old trinitarian jive.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
my lord and my god, same old trinitarian jive.

How ever loudly you wish to say "HO HUM!" it makes not difference to the truth of the Scriptures. Your boredom with being brought back to the Bible's revelation does nothing to invalidate it.

So go back to sleep.

When Jesus tells me he is God, I will believe it.

Let's see if this is so.

"And when I saw Him [Christ], I fell at His feet as dead; and He placed His right hand on me, saying, Do not fear; I am the First and the Last and the living One; and I became dead, and behold I am living forever and ever ..." (Revelation 1:17,18a)

If you believe that God is the First and the Last according to what God told you in Isaiah 44:6 -

"Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts, I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is no God"
Then the man Jesus has just told you in Revelation 1:17,18 that He is God.

Originally posted by sonship
How ever loudly you wish to say "HO HUM!" it makes not difference to the truth of the Scriptures. Your boredom with being brought back to the Bible's revelation does nothing to invalidate it.

So go back to sleep.

it has nothing to do with Biblical revelation in itself, but your spin on that revelation. One would be as well trying to convert an atheist hedgehog as trying to reason with a trinitarian.

Originally posted by sonship

When Jesus tells me he is God, I will believe it.

Let's see if this is so.

[b]"And when I saw Him [Christ], I fell at His feet as dead; and He placed His right hand on me, saying, Do not fear; I am the First and the Last and the living One; and I became dead, and behold I am living forever and ever ..." (Revelation 1:17,18a) [ ...[text shortened]... "
Then the man Jesus has just told you in Revelation 1:17,18 that He is God.[/b]

1. The phrase, “the First and the Last,” is a title that is used five times in the Bible, twice in Isaiah of God (44:6; 48:12) and three times in Revelation of the Son (1:17; 2:8; 22:13). Trinitarians sometimes make the assumption that since the same title applies to both the Father and the Son, they must both be God. However, there is no biblical justification on which to base that assumption. When the whole of Scripture is studied, one sees that the same titles are used for God, Christ and men. Examples include “Lord” (see Rom. 10:9) and “Savior” (see Luke 1:47) and “King of kings” (see 1 Tim. 6:14-16). If other titles apply to God, Christ and men without making all of them into “one God,” then there is no reason to assume that this particular title would mean they were one God unless Scripture specifically told us so, which it does not.
2. In the Old Testament, God truly was “the First and the Last.” The meaning of the title is not specifically given, but the key to its meaning is given in Isaiah 41:4, in which God says He has called forth the generations of men, and was with the first of them and is with the last of them.
Isaiah 41:4:
“Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the Lord—with the first of them and with the last—I am he.” Thus, the Bible connects the phrase “the First and the Last” with calling forth the generations.
While God was the one who called forth the generations in the Old Testament, He has now conferred that authority on His Son. Thus, it is easy to see why the Lord Jesus is called “the First and the Last” in the book of Revelation. It will be Jesus Christ who will call forth the generations of people from the grave to enter in to everlasting life. God gave Jesus authority to raise the dead (John 5:25-27). His voice will raise all dead Christians (1 Thess. 4:16 and 17), and he will change our bodies into new glorious bodies (Phil. 3:20 and 21). However, even when Jesus said he had the authority to raise the dead, he never claimed he had that authority inherently because he was God. He always said that his Father had given authority to him. While teaching about his authority, Jesus Christ was very clear about who was the ultimate authority: “The Son can do nothing by himself…the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son…For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in himself. And He has given him authority to judge” (John 5:19,22,26 and 27). If Jesus had the authority to raise the dead because he was in some way God, he never said so. He said he had his authority because his Father gave it to him. With the authority to raise the generations came the title associated with the existence of the generations, and thus after his resurrection Jesus Christ is called “the First and the Last.”
Morgridge, p. 122
Racovian Catechism, pp. 157-163

1. The phrase, “the First and the Last,” is a title that is used five times in the Bible, twice in Isaiah of God (44:6; 48:12) and three times in Revelation of the Son (1:17; 2:8; 22:13). Trinitarians sometimes make the assumption that since the same title applies to both the Father and the Son, they must both be God. However, there is no biblical justification on which to base that assumption.

So you believe that aside from "THE First" there is another second "THE First". So you want me to believe that aside from "THE Last" there is another "THE Last".

You have a confusing First before the First and a Last after "the Last".

That is nonsense - TWO Firsts and TWO Lasts.

I think the Spirit's intention is simply to reveal that indeed, the Word that was God became flesh.

The Christian can subjectively detect no difference between the Son indwelling Him as the Holy Spirit and the Father indwelling Him as the Holy Spirit.

Paul, speaking quite experiencially interchanges titles - The Spirit of God with "the Spirit of Christ" with "Christ" with "the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead." Practically on one breath Paul uses the titles interchangeably. All are spoken of as indwelling or within the regenerated Christian -

Romans 8:9-11 - "But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you , though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to our mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you."

Seamlessly, the varied titles are used to indicate that there is distinction but no separation between - the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, Christ Himself, and the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead.

In the same way Jehovah God in Isaiah is the First and the Last and the Son of God is the First in the Last.

Jesus is Lord in Romans 10. And Revelation speaks of "our Lord and of His Christ" (Rev. 11:15)

Ephesians speaks of " one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and IN all." (Eph. 4:6)

In other words God the Father is not only OVER all in the mystical Body of Christ. He is also "in all" the members of the Body. But Christ is IN the Christians as well. We cannot detect any separation between the indwelling Father and the indwelling Son. There is distinction without separation.

So the First is truly THE First whether it speaks of Jehovah God or Jehovah incarnate as Jesus Christ the Son. There still is only one unique First and one unique Last.

[quote]
2. In the Old Testament, God truly was “the First and the Last.” The meaning of the title is not specifically given,

The meaning should be pretty self evident. The center and the circumference of all being is God. None precede Him as the source. None are after Him as the One to whom we must arrive. Besides Him there is no God.

And He became flesh in incarnation, went into death and came out in resurrection. He is still the First and the Last. No God was formed before Him and no God will be formed after Him.

There really shouldn't be a problem in getting the impact of "the First and the Last" - "I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is no God." (Isa, 44:6) .

The same matter is spoken when Christ says He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.

but the key to its meaning is given in Isaiah 41:4, in which God says He has called forth the generations of men, and was with the first of them and is with the last of them.
Isaiah 41:4:
“Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the Lord—with the first of them and with the last—I am he.” Thus, the Bible connects the phrase “the First and the Last” with calling forth the generations.

I don't see how this has any effect on God speaking that He is the First and the Last before or after the incarnation.

In Isaiah 44:8 the First and the Last is also the only Rock. God says He knows of no other Rock -

"Is there a God besides Me ? Or is there any [other] Rock? I do not know [of any]" (v.8)

The New Testament tells us that the Rock of Israel was Christ before His incarnation -

"And all drank the same spiritual drink of a spiritual rock which followed them, and the rock was Christ." (1 Cor. 10:4)

There is no other Divine Rock but Jehovah God, the First and the Last. And that Rock was Christ. Christ also says He is the First and the Last.

It is mysterious but it is real. And through Jesus Christ God becomes real to man's subjective enjoyment.

While God was the one who called forth the generations in the Old Testament, He has now conferred that authority on His Son. Thus, it is easy to see why the Lord Jesus is called “the First and the Last” in the book of Revelation. It will be Jesus Christ who will call forth the generations of people from the grave to enter in to everlasting life. God gave Jesus authority to raise the dead (John 5:25-27). His voice will raise all dead Christians (1 Thess. 4:16 and 17), and he will change our bodies into new glorious bodies (Phil. 3:20 and 21). However, even when Jesus said he had the authority to raise the dead, he never claimed he had that authority inherently because he was God ... ... ... “The Son can do nothing by himself…the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son…For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in himself. And He has given him authority to judge” (John 5:19,22,26 and 27). ... ... ... thus after his resurrection Jesus Christ is called “the First and the Last.”

All this only goes to show that there is distinction among the three of the Triune God but not separation.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] 1. The phrase, “the First and the Last,” is a title that is used five times in the Bible, twice in Isaiah of God (44:6; 48:12) and three times in Revelation of the Son (1:17; 2:8; 22:13). Trinitarians sometimes make the assumption that since the same title applies to both the Father and the Son, they must both be God. However, there is no biblical ju ...[text shortened]... nction among the three of the Triune God but not separation.

triune God, bwahahahahahahah

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] 1. The phrase, “the First and the Last,” is a title that is used five times in the Bible, twice in Isaiah of God (44:6; 48:12) and three times in Revelation of the Son (1:17; 2:8; 22:13). Trinitarians sometimes make the assumption that since the same title applies to both the Father and the Son, they must both be God. However, there is no biblical ju nction among the three of the Triune God but not separation.

First and last is a common expression used by some bible writers and it really means all or everything. The book of Chronicles uses it a dozen times or so. Both God and Christ are first and last ie all and everything, but separate and distinct in that God is the Father and Christ is the son sent for a specific reason by the Father. One is above the other. They are not equal. As usual it is better to err on the side of of Christ. Christ called God his Father and called himself the Son. Isaiah,Thomas, Paul etc cannot be greater authorities that Christ himself.

Originally posted by josephw
Jesus is not a "God-Man" or "Man-God".

Jesus is both God and man. Fully God and fully man. Try to think of it that way once. Jesus is God, and Jesus is a man, but not a "God-Man" as some try to portray Him. It's the same thing when trying to understand the Godhead. We know God is three distinct persons, yet God is one God. God became a man. A man didn't b ...[text shortened]... That is all there is to know. Get that and then you will know all you need to know.

Need to know?


Says who?

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] 1. The phrase, “the First and the Last,” is a title that is used five times in the Bible, twice in Isaiah of God (44:6; 48:12) and three times in Revelation of the Son (1:17; 2:8; 22:13). Trinitarians sometimes make the assumption that since the same title applies to both the Father and the Son, they must both be God. However, there is no biblical ju ...[text shortened]... nction among the three of the Triune God but not separation.

What this shows is that God has given his Son all authority in heaven and earth. Jesus has won that title that G=his Father has so graciously given him for his obedience.
But, enough is enough, We are both born again and we will know the truth when He returns....🙂

Originally posted by Rajk999
First and last is a common expression used by some bible writers and it really means all or everything. The book of Chronicles uses it a dozen times or so. Both God and Christ are first and last ie all and everything, but separate and distinct in that God is the Father and Christ is the son sent for a specific reason by the Father. One is above the other. ...[text shortened]... lled himself the Son. Isaiah,Thomas, Paul etc cannot be greater authorities that Christ himself.

I agree 100%...