Originally posted by robbie carrobieActs 5:31 this one God, a Prince and a Saviour, hath exalted with His right hand, to give reformation to Israel, and forgiveness of sins;
The scriptures state that both God and Christ are
described in essence as being able to save. for example,
(Isaiah 43:3) . . .[b]For I am Jehovah your God, the Holy One of Israel your Saviour. I
have given Egypt as a ransom for you, Ethiopia and Seba in place of you. . .
further it is clear that Christ himself had a saviour,
(Hebr ...[text shortened]... d, to
give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. . .
It is beautiful in our eyes![/b]
(Youngs Lteral Translation), it's quite different from yours Robbie, as were all the other translations. You wouldn't be trying to use the NWT would you? It's (NWT) not an accepted translation by anyone in the Christian community except JW's
Originally posted by robbie carrobiehmmm what do you know, the Titus verse is also remarkedly different as well:
The scriptures state that both God and Christ are
described in essence as being able to save. for example,
(Isaiah 43:3) . . .[b]For I am Jehovah your God, the Holy One of Israel your Saviour. I
have given Egypt as a ransom for you, Ethiopia and Seba in place of you. . .
further it is clear that Christ himself had a saviour,
(Hebr ...[text shortened]... d, to
give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. . .
It is beautiful in our eyes![/b]
Titus 2:11 For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men, 12 teaching us, that denying the impiety and the worldly desires, soberly and righteously and piously we may live in the present age, 13 waiting for the blessed hope and manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, (emphasis mine)
again the YLT
Originally posted by robbie carrobieLets not leave out Hebrews (though to be fare it needs context)
The scriptures state that both God and Christ are
described in essence as being able to save. for example,
(Isaiah 43:3) . . .[b]For I am Jehovah your God, the Holy One of Israel your Saviour. I
have given Egypt as a ransom for you, Ethiopia and Seba in place of you. . .
further it is clear that Christ himself had a saviour,
(Hebr ...[text shortened]... d, to
give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. . .
It is beautiful in our eyes![/b]
Hebrews 5:5 so also the Christ did not glorify himself to become chief priest, but He who spake unto him: `My Son thou art, I to-day have begotten thee;' 6 as also in another [place] He saith, `Thou [art] a priest -- to the age, according to the order of Melchisedek;' 7 who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, 8 through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, 9 and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during,
(YLT)
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe Isaiah passage is not so bad, though there is a grammatical error in your offering
The scriptures state that both God and Christ are
described in essence as being able to save. for example,
(Isaiah 43:3) . . .[b]For I am Jehovah your God, the Holy One of Israel your Saviour. I
have given Egypt as a ransom for you, Ethiopia and Seba in place of you. . .
further it is clear that Christ himself had a saviour,
(Hebr ...[text shortened]... d, to
give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. . .
It is beautiful in our eyes![/b]
Is 43:1 And now, thus said Jehovah, Thy Creator, O Jacob, and thy Fashioner, O Israel, Be not afraid, for I have redeemed thee, I have called on thy name -- thou [art] Mine. 2 When thou passest into waters, I [am] with thee, And into floods, they do not overflow thee, When thou goest into fire, thou art not burnt, And a flame doth not burn against thee. 3 For I -- Jehovah thy God, The Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour, I have appointed Egypt thine atonement, Cush and Seba in thy stead. (YLT)
WhaI find intereseting is they refer to Jehovah as thy creator, and yet it was Christ who created all things;
John 1:10 in the world he was, and the world through him was made, and the world did not know him: 11 to his own things he came, and his own people did not receive him; 12 but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God -- to those believing in his name, 13 who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten. 14 And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth. (YLT)
6 edits
Originally posted by DowardI use extensivelly the new world translation of the Holy scriptures, it is in my opinion
Acts 5:31 this one God, a Prince and a Saviour, hath exalted with His right hand, to give reformation to Israel, and forgiveness of sins;
(Youngs Lteral Translation), it's quite different from yours Robbie, as were all the other translations. You wouldn't be trying to use the NWT would you? It's (NWT) not an accepted translation by anyone in the Christian community except JW's
a superlative translation to all others, and in case you are wondering, here is a list
not exhaustive of the references that were used in its translation, perhaps you can
cite any other translation which has utilised as extensive a list of resources and
references as ours making your statement baseless. Its hardly surprising
that nominal Christians do not accept it, then again we do not accept their practice
of having systematically removed the name of God from their translations and in
some instances to have changed the text entirely.
Codex Sinaiticus, Gr., fourth cent. C.E., British Museum, H.S., G.S.
Codex Alexandrinus, Gr., fifth cent. C.E., British Museum, H.S., G.S.
Aleppo Codex, Heb., c. 930 C.E., Israel, H.S.
Aquilas Gr. translation of H.S., second cent. C.E., Cambridge, England.
Armenian Version, fourth to thirteenth cent. C.E.; H.S., G.S.
Vatican ms 1209, Gr., fourth cent. C.E., Vatican City, Rome, H.S., G.S.
Bauer A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, by W. Bauer, second English ed., by F. W. Gingrich and F. W. Danker, Chicago and London (1979).
Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, by Brown, Driver and Briggs, Oxford, 1978 reprint.
Biblia Hebraica, by Kittel, Kahle, Alt and Eissfeldt, Privilegierte Württembergische Bibelanstalt, Stuttgart, seventh to ninth ed., 1951-55, H.S.
Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia, by Elliger and Rudolph, Deutsche Bibelstiftung, Stuttgart, 1977, H.S.
Codex Ephraemi rescriptus, Gr., fifth cent. C.E., Paris, H.S., G.S.
Cairo Codex, Heb., 895 C.E., Cairo, Egypt, H.S.
Bezae Codices, Gr. and Lat., fifth and sixth cent. C.E., Cambridge, England, G.S.
Gins. Massoretico-Critical Text of the Hebrew Bible, by C. D. Ginsburg, London, 1926.
Introduction to the Massoretico-Critical Edition of the Hebrew Bible, by C. D. Ginsburg, Ktav Publishing House, New York, 1966 reprint.
The Massorah, by C. D. Ginsburg, Ktav Publishing House, New York, 1975 reprint.
GK Gesenius’ Hebrew Grammar, by E. Kautzsch and A. E. Cowley, Oxford, England (1910).
The Interlinear Hebrew/English Bible, Vol. I-III, by J. Green, Wilmington, U.S., 1976.
Old Latin Versions, Itala, second to fourth cent. C.E.; H.S., G.S.
Matthew, Heb., edited by J. du Tillet, with a Lat. translation by J. Mercier, Paris, 1555.
Matthew, Heb., incorporated as a separate chapter in ’Even bochan [“Tried Stone”], by Shem-Tob ben Isaac Ibn Shaprut, 1385. Mss of 16th and 17th cent., Jewish Theological Seminary, New York.
Matthew and Hebrews, Heb. and Lat., by Sebastian Münster, Basel, 1537 and 1557 respectively.
Matthew, Heb., by J. Quinquarboreus, Paris, 1551.
Liturgical Gospels, Heb., by F. Petri, Wittemberg, 1573.
Liturgical Gospels, German, Lat., Gr. and Heb., by Johann Clajus, Leipzig, 1576.
Christian Greek Scriptures in 12 languages, including Heb., by Elias Hutter, Nuremberg, 1599.
Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by William Robertson, London, 1661.
Gospels, Heb. and Lat., by Giovanni Battista Jona, Rome, 1668.
The New Testament . . . in Hebrew and English, by Richard Caddick, Vol. I-III, containing Matthew—1 Corinthians, London, 1798-1805.
Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by Thomas Fry and others, London, 1817.
Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by William Greenfield, London, 1831.
Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by A. McCaul, M. S. Alexander, J. C. Reichardt and S. Hoga, London, 1838.
Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by J. C. Reichardt, London, 1846.
Luke, Acts, Romans and Hebrews, Heb., by J. H. R. Biesenthal, Berlin, 1855, 1867, 1853 and 1858 respectively.
Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by J. C. Reichardt and J. H. R. Biesenthal, London, 1866.
Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by Franz Delitzsch, London, 1981 ed.
Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by Isaac Salkinson and C. D. Ginsburg, London.
John, Heb., by Moshe I. Ben Maeir, Denver, Colorado, 1957.
A Concordance to the Greek Testament, by W. F. Moulton and A. S. Geden, fourth ed., Edinburgh, 1963.
The Emphatic Diaglott (Greek-English interlinear), by Benjamin Wilson, New York, 1864, reprint by Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, Brooklyn, 1942.
Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by United Bible Societies, Jerusalem, 1979.
Christian Greek Scriptures, Heb., by J. Bauchet, Rome, 1975.
A Literal Translation of the New Testament . . . From the Text of the Vatican Manuscript, by Herman Heinfetter, London, 1863.
St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, by W. G. Rutherford, London, 1900.
Psalms and Matthew 1:1-3:6, Heb., by Anton Margaritha, Leipzig, 1533.
Die heilige Schrift des neuen Testaments, by Dominik von Brentano, third ed., Vienna and Prague, 1796.
Journal of Theological Studies, Clarendon, Oxford.
Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, by L. Koehler and W. Baumgartner, Leiden, Netherlands, 1953.
Hebräisches und Aramäisches Lexikon zum Alten Testament, by W. Baumgartner, third ed., Leiden, Netherlands, 1967 and later ed.
Leningrad Codex Leningrad B 19A, Heb., 1008 C.E., H.S., Saltykov-Shchedrin State Public Library, Leningrad, U.S.S.R.
A Greek-English Lexicon, by H. Liddell and R. Scott, Oxford, 1968.
Septuagint, Gr., third and second cent. B.C.E., H.S. (A. Rahlfs, Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft, Stuttgart, 1935).
Septuagint (with an English translation by Sir Lancelot Brenton, S. Bagster & Sons, London, 1851).
Septuagint (P. de Lagarde, Göttingen, Germany, 1883).
LXXThomson Septuagint, translated by C. Thomson, Pells ed., London, 1904.
Masoretic Hebrew text found in Codex Leningrad B 19A as presented in BHK and BHS.
Papyrus Chester Beatty 1, Gr., third cent. C.E., Dublin, G.S.
Papyrus Chester Beatty 2, Gr., c. 200 C.E., Dublin, Ann Arbor, Michigan, U.S.A., G.S.
Papyrus Chester Beatty 3, Gr., third cent. C.E., Dublin, G.S.
Papyrus Bodmer 2, Gr., c. 200 C.E., Geneva, G.S.
Papyrus Bodmer 17, Gr., seventh cent. C.E., Geneva, G.S.
Papyrus Bodmer 14, 15, Gr., c. 200 C.E., Geneva, G.S.
The Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah, Jerusalem, found in 1947 in Qumran Cave No. 1.
Pentateuch in Samaritan, fourth cent. B.C.E., Israel.
Hebrew Old Testament, by N. H. Snaith, Israel, 1970.
Syriac, Christian Aram., fifth cent. C.E., S. Lee, London, 1826, reprint by United Bible Societies, 1979.
Curetonian Syriac, Old Syriac, fifth cent. C.E., Gospels, Cambridge, England.
Philoxenian-Harclean Syriac Version, sixth and seventh cent. C.E.; G.S.
Jerusalem (Hierosolymitanum) Version, Old Syriac, sixth cent. C.E.; G.S.
Sinaitic Syriac codex, fourth and fifth cent. C.E., Gospels.
Greek translation of H.S., by Symmachus, c. 200 C.E.
Targums, Aram. paraphrases of parts of H.S.
Jerusalem Targum I (Pseudo-Jonathan) and Jerusalem Targum II (Fragmentary Targum).
Targum of Onkelos (Babylonian Targum), Pentateuch.
Palestinian Targum, Vatican City, Rome, Pentateuch.
Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament (English ed.), Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, U.S.A., 1974 and later ed.
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (English ed.), Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, U.S.A., 1964 and later ed.
Greek translation of H.S., by Theodotion, second cent. C.E.
Textus Receptus (Received Text) of G.S., by R. Stephanus, 1550.
Latin Vulgate, by Jerome, c. 400 C.E. (Iuxta Vulgatam Versionem, Württembergische Bibelanstalt, Stuttgart, 1975).
Latin Vulgate, Clementine recension (S. Bagster & Sons, London, 1977).
Latin Vulgate, Sixtine recension, 1590.
Novum Testamentum Latine secundum editionem Sancti Hieronymi ad Codicum Manuscriptorum Fidem, by J. Wordsworth and H. J. White, Oxford, 1911.
Vetus Testamentum, E. J. Brill, Leiden, Netherlands.
Freer Gospels, fifth cent. C.E., Washington, D.C.
The New Testament in the Original Greek, by Westcott and Hort, 1948 ed. (reprinted in Int).
Lexicon Graecum Novi Testamenti, third ed., by F. Zorell, Paris, 1961.
Lexicon Hebraicum et Aramaicum Veteris Testamenti, by F. Zorell, Rome, 1968.
now you shall produce a more extensively researched translation or you shall
retract your claims, citing the fact that it is not accepted by others is not proof in
itself,merely an indication of prejudice and bias.
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-Removed-why is it that Christ has a saviour, i dont think that you have addressed not one point, you seem to do what most nominal Christians do and that is ignore the points that were being made and carry on as if the reverberated against the side of your forehead and dissipated out into the atmosphere. As for my stance , I will say it one, clearly and concisely for the last time,
Jehovah is the Source of salvation, accomplished through Jesus
do you understand what an agent is? do you understand that Christ is the Chief agent of our salvation? then you understand that God is the source of salvation
accomplished through the sacrifice of the Christ.
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Originally posted by Dowardthat is because you fail to distinguish the difference between the two, possibly as a
The Isaiah passage is not so bad, though there is a grammatical error in your offering
Is 43:1 And now, thus said Jehovah, Thy Creator, O Jacob, and thy Fashioner, O Israel, Be not afraid, for I have redeemed thee, I have called on thy name -- thou [art] Mine. 2 When thou passest into waters, I [am] with thee, And into floods, they do not overflow thee, ...[text shortened]... nd we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth. (YLT)
result of insipid translations intermingling the terms Lord for both Christ and God,
but that's your problem not mine.
have you never read this?
(Colossians 1:15-16) 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all
creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the
heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter
whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other]
things have been created through him and for him. . .
the point that we are interested in is that all other things were created through the
Christ. That is the source of the power is from God , yet it finds expression through
the Christ. It was the same with the Biblical miracles, Christ states they were his
fathers works and not once claimed they were of his own volition, indeed he states,
i do nothing of my own initiative,
(John 5:19) . . .Most truly I say to you, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative. . .
(John 5:30) . . .I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative;. . .
interesting statement for the sole creator of the universe, dont you think?
Originally posted by Agergif you notice dear agers i have produced the references which have been utilised in the
Reading arguments about which interpretation of the Bible is most correct is like listening to arguments about whos father would beat who in a fight. Both utterly pointless.
translation of my Bible, of which i am very proud of.
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieand I'm sure divegeester, doward, Menace71, RJhinds, and whoever else are equally proud of their own translations of their books of make believe ;]
if you notice dear agers i have produced the references which have been utilised in the
translation of my Bible, of which i am very proud of.