Is poor good and rich bad?

Originally posted by KellyJay
What problem do you see with that? He was telling that one guy what his
issue was, and it was his wealth, he loved it more than God. Being content
in God is a great thing, no matter if your rich or poor it is meaningless with
respect to your relationship with God. God tells us to love Him and each
other, you can do that with or without money, money can get in way, but it
does not by itself mean anything with respect to someone's heart.
Kelly

Did you miss the following?:

And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. “Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

Clearly it wasn't just about an issue for "one guy", but an indictment of the rich as a whole.

You even say, "God tells us to love...each other", yet you believe the "greater good" is for the rich to be content in their riches whilst his neighbors are destitute. Keep in mind that Jesus said, "'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" What kind of love is in the heart of one who is content in his riches whilst his neighbors are destitute? The "greater good" is not in being content in riches, but in "eliminating the social conditions which breed inequality, so that there are no rich and no poor" as Rwingett said. People who are blind to the truth in this are simply too self-centered to be able to see it. Wealth is their master rather than God.

Matthew 6
19“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20“But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal; 21for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

22“The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light. 23“But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

24“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Here is another interesting passage :

Luk 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, [b]Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
Luk 6:21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
Luk 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they sha 6:24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.

[/b]

Yes, it was a pretty prevalent theme in the teachings of Jesus. Unfortunately it seems that many cast a blind eye to it. How many different ways need Jesus say it for them to be able to see it? They have eyes, but cannot see.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Did you miss the following?:

And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. “Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

Clearly it wasn't just about an issue for "one guy", but an in ...[text shortened]... evoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.
[/quote]

I saw that in the text, and yes when Jesus was speaking to the guy that was
asking about what he should do, it was to that one guy. Jesus said a lot of
things that went against the common thoughts of the day. People during that
time felt that if God liked you, you'd be healthy so if you were not there must
be something wrong with you, they thought if God liked you there would be
blessings on your life not bad things and so on. They equated God's favor with
the wealth of this world if you had a blemish you didn't measure up.

God blessed more than a few men with great wealth in their lives, to hear some
here talk that automatically meant God turned them into sinners. The alure of
wealth and power in this world goes against the Kingdom of God, you cannot
let money or the love of it rule you life. The rich and the poor can love money
and miss out on God and the life Jesus offers to us.

I never said anyone should be content while a neighor is destitue. I have said
having money or being wealthy isn't a sin all by itself. Where your heart is, is
the main question and your heart not your bank account is the main issue in
this discussion.
Kelly

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
what?

I said the existence of money is abormal. It is a man-made system which will not continue forever. According to Jesus we should use the "mammon of unrighteousness" to make friends for ourselves. Because one day this system, this "mammon of unrighteousness" will fail.

And when it fails the eternal security will be in the things which make for the kingdom of God, including the friends we made, when we used out money for the furtherance of the gospel and the propogation of the truth of Christ's teaching:


"And I say to you, Make friends for yourselves by means of the mammon of unrighteousness, so that when it fails, they may receive you into the eternal tabernacles." (Luke 19:9)

The system of money, ie. "the mammon of unrighteousness" is abnormal and temporary. It is going to fail inevitably. We should use our wealth to encrease the kingdom of God. We should invest a portion of our wealth for the spread of the gospel and related support to that work of God.

Then in the day when the money system fails, the people we benefitted will be grateful to us, remember us, and receive is into some kind of future living security which of God completely.

I think money is unrighteous in its existence and temporary. But we can use it wisely unto God's will . Money is a byproduct of the fall of Adam and the scarcity of things on the earth as a result of the curse of the fall.

The fall, the curse, the scarcity and the accompanying "mammon of unrighteousness" will all be done away. And the eternal paradise to eventually unfold will prevail for those who are blessed to enter into that eternal age.

Originally posted by jaywill
I said the existence of money is abormal. It is a man-made system which will not continue forever. According to Jesus we should use the [b]"mammon of unrighteousness" to make friends for ourselves. Because one day this system, this "mammon of unrighteousness" will fail.

And when it fails the eternal security will be in the things whic tually unfold will prevail for those who are blessed to enter into that eternal age.[/b]

I have to disagree with you here:
Have you ever done work for a wage i.e. money?
Don't you personally use money?
Is there a reason why money is necessarily evil? If so, then what is this reason and was I and all others evil for giving money to 'save the children' and 'cancer research UK' ? What about money spent on finding cures to diseases or to develop solar panels or to farm and produce food? Is all that money evil as well?
Evil is not in a man-made thing (including money) but in its evil use.

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
I have to disagree with you here:
Have you ever done work for a wage i.e. money?
Don't you personally use money?
Is there a reason why money is necessarily evil? If so, then what is this reason and was I and all others evil for giving money to 'save the children' and 'cancer research UK' ? What about money spent on finding cures to diseases ...[text shortened]... money evil as well?
Evil is not in a man-made thing (including money) but in its evil use.

=====================================
I have to disagree with you here:
Have you ever done work for a wage i.e. money?
================================

Yes, of course I have worked for wages and possessed money.

And the passage that I quoted spoke of using money wisely.
It did not say do not use or possess money.

"And I say to you, Make friends for yoursleves by means of the mammon of unrighteousness, so that when it fails, they may receive you into the eternal tabernacles." (Luke 16:19)

This is a passage on the prudent use of money. It is not a prohibition on possessing it.

So don't jump to conclusions. It is the "love" of money which the Bible says is a root of all evil, not the money itself is the root of evil. But the love of it which is a root of all evil.

First Timothy 6:10 - "For the love of money is a root of all evils, ..."

===================
Don't you personally use money?
===================

yes.

============================
Is there a reason why money is necessarily evil? If so, then what is this reason and was I and all others evil for giving money to 'save the children' and 'cancer research UK' ?
=============================

Charitable giving could certainly be under the catagory of making friends by means of the prudent use of the mammon of unrighteousness.

===========================
What about money spent on finding cures to diseases or to develop solar panels or to farm and produce food? Is all that money evil as well?
Evil is not in a man-made thing (including money) but in its evil use.
=============================

The mammon of unrighteousness will one day fail, period.

For the Christian it is not a worry because the world we will inherit will be free from scarcity, disease, cancer, poverty, shortage of food.

In the mean time we prudently should use money. But it is a system which is inevitably going to fail.

You can read about the weeping and wailing of the world's merchants because of the collapse of the mammon of unrithteousness in the 18th chapter of the book of Revelation.

Originally posted by jaywill
I said the existence of money is abormal. It is a man-made system which will not continue forever. According to Jesus we should use the [b]"mammon of unrighteousness" to make friends for ourselves. Because one day this system, this "mammon of unrighteousness" will fail.

And when it fails the eternal security will be in the things whic ...[text shortened]... tually unfold will prevail for those who are blessed to enter into that eternal age.[/b]

Of course money is abnormal. The commodification of all of nature is abnormal. All of human civilization, for that matter, is abnormal. Mankind, in his effort to tame the earth and refashion every element therein as a commodity for his personal use, is destroying it at an ever accelerating pace. The Fall, if anything, represents mankind's alienation from nature and his adoption of a decidedly unnatural and pathological lifestyle as embodied by "civilization."

Originally posted by jaywill
Charitable giving could certainly be under the catagory of making friends by means of the prudent use of the mammon of unrighteousness.

Charity is only necessary in a social system that is inherently unjust. And charitable giving may have the paradoxical effect of prolonging unjust social relations by blunting their worst excesses and making them appear more tolerable. Far better to alter those unjust social relations and thereby make charity unnecessary. Make no mistake, there will be no charity in the kingdom.

Originally posted by rwingett
Of course money is abnormal. The commodification of all of nature is abnormal. All of human civilization, for that matter, is abnormal. Mankind, in his effort to tame the earth and refashion every element therein as a commodity for his personal use, is destroying it at an ever accelerating pace. The Fall, if anything, represents mankind's alienation from na ...[text shortened]... s adoption of a decidedly unnatural and pathological lifestyle as embodied by "civilization."

Do you think beavers are abnormal when they build a dam, or a bird when
they build a bird nest? How about when a volcano erupts and spews all the
gases it does into the atmosphere is that abnormal? Do you think oil that
is simply naturally seeping coming out of the ground into the oceans abnormal?
Do you think the moon even though it is void of life abnormal? What exactly
do you think is normal? Do lions when they act out of their nature normal,
or owls, or any other living creatures, but if people who are caught simply
doing what they do, why is that somehow abnormal according to you? Who
are you to tell anyone what normal is, or me for that matter? If there is a
normal than the one who set it up is the only one that can call it what it is.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Do you think beavers are abnormal when they build a dam, or a bird when
they build a bird nest? How about when a volcano erupts and spews all the
gases it does into the atmosphere is that abnormal? Do you think oil that
is simply naturally seeping coming out of the ground into the oceans abnormal?
Do you think the moon even though it is void of life abn ...[text shortened]... hy is that somehow abnormal according to you? Who
are you to tell anyone what normal is?
Kelly

All of that is normal, or, more preferably, 'natural.' Mankind lived naturally for millions of years as a harmonious part of his surroundings. Since about 10,000 years ago, though, mankind has fashioned an increasingly unnatural lifestyle for himself. An unsustainable lifestyle that has increasingly alienated himself from nature while simultaneously depleting and destroying it.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I saw that in the text, and yes when Jesus was speaking to the guy that was
asking about what he should do, it was to that one guy. Jesus said a lot of
things that went against the common thoughts of the day. People during that
time felt that if God liked you, you'd be healthy so if you were not there must
be something wrong with you, they thought if Go question and your heart not your bank account is the main issue in
this discussion.
Kelly

I saw that in the text, and yes when Jesus was speaking to the guy that was
asking about what he should do, it was to that one guy.

You and I know full well that you're avoiding addressing Matthew 19:23-24 in a meaningful way.

After I posted Matthew 19:16-24, you posted the following:

What problem do you see with that? He was telling that one guy what his issue was, and it was his wealth, he loved it more than God.

Here you tried to dismiss the passage in its entirety as if the point was only about the particular issue about "one guy" when in 23-24, Jesus clearly was making an indictment of the rich as a whole.

So I specifically pointed out 23-24 to you, only to have you avoid it again:

I saw that in the text, and yes when Jesus was speaking to the guy that was asking about what he should do, it was to that one guy.

It's as if in reading 23-24, you decided to only remark on 16-22 again. In 23-24, clearly Jesus was addressing the disciples about the rich in general and that "one guy" had already left.

Why do you insist on continuing to play games?

I never said anyone should be content while a neighor is destitue.

After avoiding the following a number of times...

"Do you believe that an individual who is content in being rich while others are destitute truly good?" Do you believe such an individual truly good?

...you responded with this:

Can be yes.

So if you believe such an individual can be considered "truly good", it follows that you also believe that it's okay for that individual to "be content while a neighbor is destitute".

Once again, Why do you insist on continuing to play games?

All it seem you know how to do is avoid salient questions/points, tell half-truths and then go off on largely unrelated conjecture laden rants.

Is it really too much to ask for you to actually address my posts in an intellectually honest and straightforward manner?

Originally posted by rwingett
All of that is normal, or, more preferably, 'natural.' Mankind lived naturally for millions of years as a harmonious part of his surroundings. Since about 10,000 years ago, though, mankind has fashioned an increasingly unnatural lifestyle for himself. An unsustainable lifestyle that has increasingly alienated himself from nature while simultaneously depleting and destroying it.

You again say man is doing something unnatural, well if man is part of the
natural order of things, and man is acting according to man's nature, it is
indeed part of the natural order of things.
Kelly

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]I saw that in the text, and yes when Jesus was speaking to the guy that was
asking about what he should do, it was to that one guy.

You and I know full well that you're avoiding addressing Matthew 19:23-24 in a meaningful way.

After I posted Matthew 19:16-24, you posted the following:
[quote]What problem do you see with that? He was telling ...[text shortened]... o actually address my posts in an intellectually honest and straightforward manner?[/b]

I did address your points, I just disagree with what you are claiming is the
truth of the matter as you see it.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You again say man is doing something unnatural, well if man is part of the
natural order of things, and man is acting according to man's nature, it is
indeed part of the natural order of things.
Kelly

You obviously fail to comprehend what I'm saying.

Mankind ceased being a part of the natural order of things around 10,000 years ago. Since then he has fashioned a decidedly unnatural relationship between himself and nature. Homo Habilis first appeared around 2 million years ago. Homo Sapiens have been around for some 250,000 years. For the vast majority of that time they lived the natural life of a hunter-gatherer in a close and integrated relationship with nature. The last 10,000 years of human "civilization" represents a mere blip on the human timeline. It does not represent mankind acting according to his nature, but, rather, represents mankind acting contrary to his nature. All of human civilization is an aberration which has removed from his natural surroundings and severed any healthy, sustainable relationship between himself and the natural order of things.

Originally posted by rwingett
Of course money is abnormal. The commodification of all of nature is abnormal. All of human civilization, for that matter, is abnormal. Mankind, in his effort to tame the earth and refashion every element therein as a commodity for his personal use, is destroying it at an ever accelerating pace. The Fall, if anything, represents mankind's alienation from na ...[text shortened]... s adoption of a decidedly unnatural and pathological lifestyle as embodied by "civilization."

Of a truth rwingett.