Is The Bible Accurate?

Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]Originally posted by KingDavid403
I am a sinner!

Originally posted by The Chess Express
Is this a boast? Jesus tells us not to sin.

No its not a boast its a fact as paul said in 1st Tim 1:15 "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I portant as general praying

I do use names occasionally.

God bless.[/b]

You are so confused and wrong im not wasting my time with you anymore on this subject. Heres my last comment, I never said it was ok to sin And im not making any excuses so i may sin further. I have sin in me as you do also, weather you want to beleave it or not. here's scripture to back that up.

Living in the Light
5 This is the message he has given us to announce to you: God is light and there is no darkness in him at all. 6 So we are lying if we say we have fellowship with God but go on living in spiritual darkness. We are not living in the truth. 7 But if we are living in the light of God's presence, just as Christ is, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from every sin.
8 If we say we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and refusing to accept the truth. 9 But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from every wrong. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts.

My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if you do sin, there is someone to plead for you before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who pleases God completely.* 2 He is the sacrifice for our sins. He takes away not only our sins but the sins of all the world.

I am not boasting that im a sinner. Im merely stating a fact. Weather I commit a sin or not my flesh still desires to sin. therefore making me a sinner. I try not to sin but sometimes i still do. John chapter 1 verse 10 says it all brother. Im praying for you. enough said. David

Originally posted by KingDavid403
You are so confused and wrong im not wasting my time with you anymore on this subject. Heres my last comment, I never said it was ok to sin And im not making any excuses so i may sin further. I have sin in me as you do also, weather you want to beleave it or not. here's scripture to back that up.

Living in the Light
5 This is the message he l do. John chapter 1 verse 10 says it all brother. Im praying for you. enough said. David

You are so confused and wrong im not wasting my time with you anymore on this subject. Heres my last comment, I never said it was ok to sin And im not making any excuses so i may sin further. I have sin in me as you do also, weather you want to beleave it or not. here's scripture to back that up.

[/b]I admit I’m still very confused. I seem to remember a verse in the scripture that says something to the effect that everybody is foolish in comparison to God. Can’t think of where it is now…oh well.

You misunderstood what I meant by the term “sinner.” A sinner is somebody who doesn’t know or care about God and basically lives his/her life in a way that reflects it. The term “Heathen” comes to mind. Saved Christians still slip up, but it’s wrong for a Christian to call him/herself a sinner. A plumber plumbs, a miner mines, a farmer farms, a sinner sins. Sinning should not be the profession of a Christian. Also, I never claimed that I never sin.

Matt 5:48 Be yee therefore perfect, even as your father which is in heaven is perfect.

The idea is to not sin. Jesus knew what he was talking about when he said this. If you believe that God doesn’t give us a burden so heavy that we can’t bear it, then you must believe that this is possible.

Living in the Light
5 This is the message he has given us to announce to you: God is light and there is no darkness in him at all. 6 So we are lying if we say we have fellowship with God but go on living in spiritual darkness. We are not living in the truth. 7 But if we are living in the light of God's presence, just as Christ is, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from every sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and refusing to accept the truth. 9 But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from every wrong. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts. My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if you do sin, there is someone to plead for you before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who pleases God completely.* 2 He is the sacrifice for our sins. He takes away not only our sins but the sins of all the world.

This is pretty much what I’m saying. Sinners live in darkness, believers accept the light. "My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin." BTW, where in the scripture is this?

I am not boasting that im a sinner. Im merely stating a fact. Weather I commit a sin or not my flesh still desires to sin. therefore making me a sinner.

Mastering the flesh is another goal. I’m sure the scripture talks about it, I just have to think where.

I try not to sin but sometimes i still do. John chapter 1 verse 10 says it all brother. Im praying for you. enough said. David

Great, still want me in your clan. 😀

Edit: Found one more...

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethern, mark them which causes diversions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which yee have learned; and avoid them.

I guess you'd better shun me...😞

Originally posted by RosePetal
Ok ok.. Me thinks it's time I add my 2 cents to this.. hmmm.. good thing I have a quarter left over.. cause I might need to call a friend.. oh whoops.. what friend.. Ahh.. I don't need a telephone.. He always is there.

Anyhow... your writings disturb me. I do not understand how you define "works".. but, if it is something we have done to earn our salva ...[text shortened]... . may we all grow more in Him.

In Christ,

RosePetal

Couldn't have said it better myself. Got my rec...Chess E does not seem to understand that we are born with a sin nature, and that it stays with us even after the new birth. It is finally taken away at the return of our Lord.

Originally posted by RosePetal
Ok ok.. Me thinks it's time I add my 2 cents to this.. hmmm.. good thing I have a quarter left over.. cause I might need to call a friend.. oh whoops.. what friend.. Ahh.. I don't need a telephone.. He always is there.

Anyhow... your writings disturb me. I do not understand how you define "works".. but, if it is something we have done to earn our salva . may we all grow more in Him.

In Christ,

RosePetal

Anyhow... your writings disturb me. I do not understand how you define "works".. but, if it is something we have done to earn our salvation.. you are so terribly mistaken. Maybe you "think" you can earn it.. and by all means.. go on your merry way being so deceived if you so choose.. I will lay out the scriptures that God has so graciously given me that make it so clear that He and He alone bought my salvation. Oh.. and as far as my faith being dead without works.. AMEN!!! it would be.. that is my works are what give evidence that my Saviour is living in me. Alright.. here we go.. fasten your seatbelt!!!

Sometimes I have a disturbing effect on people. Check out Freaky’s post. 😕

you say "To call yourself a sinner is just a cop out. Sinners sin. This implies that you have no choice in the matter. It’s a very bad excuse. When people accept God into their lives they are no longer sinners. If the problem is that people are sinners, then the solution is to not be a sinner. If Jesus believed that we had no choice in the matter then he would never have said a thing like this."

Yes, that is what I say.

And yet Paul AFTER he was saved states [b]"And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. " I Timothy 1:15[/b]

So you would agree then that it’s necessary to accept Jesus? I’ll assume your answer is yes. Accepting Jesus means doing what the heck he tells us to do, and he tells us to do many good works. You mentioned that you don’t know what I mean by a work. The verse I provided in my previous post where Jesus tells Christians to be charitable is one example, if you need more let me know.

The fallacy that once we become Christian we never sin... thus changing us to not a sinner... is just that a fallacy. Again to saved Christians it is written "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. " I John 1:7-10[/b]

I don’t claim that somebody can go from heathen to a Christ like saint over night. The process is long (I could get into how long the process might take but that would blow you away) and arduous. Christians sin along the way, but they are not sinners.

Your statements like "Jesus expected others to follow his advice" and other such sayings, makes me wonder who do you think He was? Do you study about Him and what He says.. or do you really Know Him? Don't get me wrong.. I am not saying you don't.. but each of us need to know Him more and more.. growing in grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The truth is I find the whole of the scripture terribly confusing. 😞 Jesus’ teachings are no exception. You are correct that I don’t know Jesus. I also believe that many Christians who claim to know Jesus don’t know him either.

Exod 33:11 So the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. And he would return to the camp,.....

This is what it would take to get me to say that I know Jesus, and it hasn’t happened yet. 🙁 My new friend in Christ David 😵 knows that such things are possible.

And again.. you are so right.. Jesus did say... Why call me Lord and do not the things I say. Any Christian that ALREADY knows Him will strive to do what He ask and commands. Yes, ones that already know Him.. but you can't "earn" your salvation through works.. scripture is clear from it.

I’m glad we agree that Jesus’ instructions should be followed but isn’t it the other way around? One doesn’t know Jesus until he/her accepts Jesus and strives to follow his commands.

Our works without God working through us are what God said in Isaiah But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. filthy rags being a woman's times rags.. hmmm.. some works!! Isaiah 64:6

Actually I find it disturbing myself that we can interpret the scripture in more or less the same way and yet come to totally different conclusions. 😕 As you say our works done by ourselves are as filthy rags (the heathen) our works through God are good because a true Christian does good works for God.

The only thing we humans can earn without God's intervention is “For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Great! So we can agree that salvation has to be earned. I find it puzzling that you take God out of the equation though. Salvation means eternity with God. Doesn’t it?

I read the statement you made about"apologizing for future sins"sheesh man!!! Read the scripture "Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." James 5:16

Easy, we basically agree on this. For some reason you insist on calling Christians sinners. The term sinner implies somebody who sins as I mentioned above. The idea is not to sin. Do you need scriptural support for this? About a dozen verses come to mind off the top of my head.

Do you think that you are oh so holy once you give yourself to Christ that you will never sin again.. hmmm.. be careful.. you may be teetering on making Christ a liar And Paul, [b] "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not. Romans 7:18 Hmm.. spoken AFTER he was saved.[/b]

Look man, I’ve been so misunderstood here it’s breaking me. I don’t claim to be perfect or holy. I’m not even wise. I’m just trying to make sense of all this crrrr auh stuff the best way I can. Take this passage for example.

Philippians 3:10-14 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

This pretty much says it all. What can I add. St. Paul tells us to be perfect as Jesus is. Jesus is perfect like God is and he says the same thing.

Matt 5:48 Be yee therefore perfect, even as your father which is in heaven is perfect.

He tells us to be as he is.

Matt 10:24-25 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his Lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his Lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household.

Now Paul is confirming all of this. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death…

Paul further says that he hasn’t reached Jesus’ level of perfection but he continues to try earnestly.

“Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.”

Answer me this. If Paul was already saved, why would he “strain towards what’s ahead?” Paul knew that becoming like Jesus requires an effort. That’s all I’m saying. There is no "oh I’m saved now I don’t have to try any more." Good works and effort are still very necessary. There is no such thing as a lazy saint.

Your statement, "Jesus clearly says that a true Christian will become as he is. St. Paul specifies that he is talking about his flesh. Jesus is talking about our soul/consciousness. " Isn't as true as you'd like it to be. Yes, we need to be like Him.. but this we will only attain when we see Him face to face... Jesus said, "The disciple is not above [his] master, nor the servant above his lord." Matthew 10:24 not the disciple is as his Lord

Why do Christians do that, why? How can you cut off a verse and come to a conclusion when the exact same verse refutes that conclusion 😕 This is what Jesus says It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his Lord Jesus is saying that we can’t be better than he is because he is perfect, but we can be perfect like him. Please read the entire verse.

Continued...

Edit: Maybe I should add this for clarification.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
You misunderstood what I meant by the term “sinner.” A sinner is somebody who doesn’t know or care about God and basically lives his/her life in a way that reflects it. The term “Heathen” comes to mind. Saved Christians still slip up, but it’s wrong for a Christian to call him/herself a sinner. A plumber plumbs, a miner mines, a farmer farms, a sinner sins. Sinning should not be the profession of a Christian. Also, I never claimed that I never sin.

Originally posted by RosePetal
[/b]Anyhow... your writings disturb me. I do not understand how you define "works".. but, if it is something we have done to earn our salvation.. you are so terribly mistaken. Maybe you "think" you can earn it.. and by all means.. go on your merry way being so deceived if you so choose.. I will lay out the scriptures that God has so graciously given be perfect like him. Please read the entire verse.

Continued...

There is much more that I could write, but I am saddened because you seem to be wresting with the scripture so it says what you believe it says in your view. I am not sure why you are doing this.

[/b]The feeling is mutual.

I agree so much with you that our faith is dead without works.. but I vehemently disagree with your idea that our faith, salvation or redemption is bought by works. Jesus Christ bought my redemption.. and yours, whether you agree or not doesn't matter...May God bless you mightily and may you grow in Him and may your eyes be enlightened to more of His truth in His word.. may we all grow more in Him. In Christ, RosePetal

Amen, and may God bless you as well. Nice name btw. 🙂

Edit: I think this verse proves just how accurate the Bible really is.

Luke 8: 9-10 And the disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? 10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

🙄

Originally posted by KingDavid403
here Paul is saying not to keep company with someone who says they are a Christian but still does these things unashamedly. BUT he is also saying, that you will have to deal with sinners in the world and keep company with them to get them saved.. as Paul ate meat sacrificed to false gods with sinners to get them saved and did not become rude to them in doing so.

Take Care and God Bless. David[/b]

Here are a couple of more verses that say Christians need to avoid bad company.

"Do not be misled: Bad company corrupts good character." (1 Corinthians 15:33)

"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?" (2 Corinthians 6:14).

I think it's safe to say that St. Paul is not just referring to the pretend Christians, but the heathens in general.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]Anyhow... your writings disturb me. I do not understand how you define "works".. but, if it is something we have done to earn our salvation.. you are so terribly mistaken. Maybe you "think" you can earn it.. and by all means.. go on your merry way being so deceived if you so choose.. I will lay out the scriptures that God has so graciously given ...[text shortened]... ofession of a Christian. Also, I never claimed that I never sin.

I pray that you do keep coming back here. Although you, according to how you interpret scripture, are disobeying it by being here and "associating with all us sinners". I pray you do keep coming back so perhaps God can remove the scales from you eyes.

Anyhow... thanks for the compliment.. and you certainly study scripture..

As far as having conversations with Jesus... like your friend David... my Lord and I have many conversations... and yes... I will mention you in them. 🙂

Oh, by the way.. don't assume someone agrees with you.. as you many times in your response tell me that "we agree". I do not agree. Some of it I do... however.. one thing is clear.. I will again state it.. Christ Jesus is the only one who bought my salvation.. I didn't earn it, and never could.

God bless,

RosePetal 🙂

Originally posted by RosePetal
I pray that you do keep coming back here. Although you, according to how you interpret scripture, are disobeying it by being here and "associating with all us sinners". I pray you do keep coming back so perhaps God can remove the scales from you eyes.

Anyhow... thanks for the compliment.. and you certainly study scripture..

As far as having conv e who bought my salvation.. I didn't earn it, and never could.

God bless,

RosePetal 🙂

I pray that you do keep coming back here.

We’ll see. No promises. This place seems like it’s divided between the nasty atheists and the Christians whom it appears I have very little in common with. I might be better off some place else. I appreciate the sentiment though. I didn’t think I’d ever here it here. 🙂

Although you, according to how you interpret scripture, are disobeying it by being here and "associating with all us sinners". I pray you do keep coming back so perhaps God can remove the scales from you eyes.

Eeesh, I really have to take communication classes. 😞 What I’ve been saying is that I don’t think any of you guys are sinners! That’s why it bothers me to here you all call yourselves that.

Anyhow... thanks for the compliment.. and you certainly study scripture…

You’re welcome and I will.

As far as having conversations with Jesus... like your friend David... my Lord and I have many conversations... and yes... I will mention you in them. 🙂

I’m glad you knew how to take that remark. Report back to me if you would. (Private message of coarse)

Oh, by the way.. don't assume someone agrees with you.. as you many times in your response tell me that "we agree". I do not agree. Some of it I do... however.. one thing is clear.. I will again state it.. Christ Jesus is the only one who bought my salvation.. I didn't earn it, and never could.

Maybe it’s a matter of what being saved means. If being saved means simply avoiding hell then I can agree that one simply needs to accept Jesus (and all that it means). I guess I think there’s more to it then that. Who knows? Maybe I should get that divine cataracts surgery…

God bless,

As always God bless.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]I pray that you do keep coming back here.

We’ll see. No promises. This place seems like it’s divided between the nasty atheists and the Christians whom it appears I have very little in common with. I might be better off some place else. I appreciate the sentiment though. I didn’t think I’d ever here it here. 🙂

Although you, accordi I should get that divine cataracts surgery…

[b]God bless,

As always God bless.[/b]

Ok, let me see if I can help clear some of this up. Christians retain the sin nature and tend to sin from time to time, not willingly (I hope), but even this is forgiven. Jesus Christ paid for my sins past, present and future. When He returns for His church and we are transformed into our new bodies we will no longer have that sinful nature.
For the time being we have two natures. One good one bad. Someone once said it is like two dogs fighting in me. Which one wins? The one I feed. I can feed myself the things of the world or the things of God through His word.
Rom 8:5-11
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken(make alive) your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
(KJV)

Col 3:1-10
1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
(KJV)
I hope these verses help clear up the two natures. It was also Pauls struggle in Romans 6-7.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]I pray that you do keep coming back here.

We’ll see. No promises. This place seems like it’s divided between the nasty atheists and the Christians whom it appears I have very little in common with. I might be better off some place else. I appreciate the sentiment though. I didn’t think I’d ever here it here. 🙂

Although you, accordi ...[text shortened]... I should get that divine cataracts surgery…

[b]God bless,

As always God bless.[/b]

I dont feel you should leave either. I,ve read some of your posts and I think you do a great job spreading the gospel. I dont agree with everything you think. But who am I ? Nothing but a SINNER also. LOL I just had to do that. Anyways I know you are my brother in Christ. And brothers fight and dont get along sometimes. But I really think you should stay unless God tells you otherwise. Pray to Him and Ask. You will get a answer if you have faith you will. It might not be a physical voice but a spiritual one. Or maybe a spiritual sign or a or spiritual feeling that God is talking to you. thats Him if its a quiet still voice. If its loud and noisy thats not Him. He might thump you in the head, but Calmly and quietly. As Elijah has written in Gods word. Ive been praying for you brother. God Bless. David P.S. Bye the way i dont get along with the majority of supposed Christians either. But I still love them as christ loves me even when im bad. Take Care.

Originally posted by The Chess Express
[b]I pray that you do keep coming back here.

We’ll see. No promises. This place seems like it’s divided between the nasty atheists and the Christians whom it appears I have very little in common with. I might be better off some place else. I appreciate the sentiment though. I didn’t think I’d ever here it here. 🙂

Although you, accordi ...[text shortened]... I should get that divine cataracts surgery…

[b]God bless,

As always God bless.[/b]

Now you are starting to sound more "sound". Anyways.. I wouldn't expect you to listen to me only or even first.. but to Him and His Word. Ephesians 4 talks about not being tossed about by every wind of doctrine, but speaking the truth in love, SO we may, grow up in all things into Him who is the head - Christ- from whom (Christ) the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. each part of the body of Christ being joined together.. increasing in love.

So, that is what is being attempted here.. one part of the body supplying encouragment and speaking the truth in love, and as you are trying to encourage also with your words... I pray it helps you grow more.. as it has me... and that instead of drawing away from fellow Christians... whether they correct, agree or disagree with you.. you allow yourself to be knit and joined together, increasing in Him and His love.

In Christ,

RosePetal.

Originally posted by RosePetal, ChessExpress, KingDavid, Checkbaitor

Throughout this discussion it seems to me like you are all saying more or less the same thing, but I just wanted to clarify with the following question:

True or False, according to scripture: that BOTH faith (in Christ) AND works are NECESSARY conditions for attaining salvation?

Also, I think ChessE really had his words manipulated. I don't think he ever said that following getting saved he would be without sin; he only said that the saved should attempt to lead a life without sin (after all, if you believe that free will is a mechanism by which the agent is free to choose to do good or evil or morally neutral actions [which is a woefully inadequate definition in my opinion but...]; and if you further assume that humans possess free will at all times; and if you further assume that good/neutral choices are always available; then you must conclude that it is at least possible that one could live entirely free from committing evil actions, right?). In that sense, CE is saying that it is not accurate to label himself as a "sinner" because "one who continually strives to not sin (but who may well occassionally slip up and sin)" is not properly described by the word "sinner". Is that right, CE?

If that is right, then anyone who continually strives to do good by a correct ethical code is not properly labeled as a "sinner" either -- regardless of whether he believes in God or not, don't you agree? Or what was the word you used? "Heathen"? I don't think that would be a proper label either.

Originally posted by LemonJello
Throughout this discussion it seems to me like you are all saying more or less the same thing, but I just wanted to clarify with the following question:

True or False, according to scripture: that BOTH faith (in Christ) AND works are NECESSARY conditions for attaining salvation?

Also, I think ChessE really had his words manipulated. I don't think h the word you used? "Heathen"? I don't think that would be a proper label either.

Faith is dead without works. But, one cannot work to be saved. He also must have faith. How can you be saved if you treat your brother horribly - if you do not help the poor, if you do not turn the other cheek, if you do not leave vengeance to the Lord? Also, I thought it might be beneficial to you all if you could see the face of God: www.777news.com. It's at the bottom of the Pacific ocean. The face has been discovered. This also is in the Bible. That before the end, we would see the face of God on the face of the planet. Also the hands of the Lord holding Israel, the angels and Satan are on the globe also. Atheists everywhere are baffled. It is time for the end, for all things to be fulfilled. Just click on the STORY OF THE MONTH.

Originally posted by LemonJello
Throughout this discussion it seems to me like you are all saying more or less the same thing, but I just wanted to clarify with the following question:

True or False, according to scripture: that BOTH faith (in Christ) AND works are NECESSARY conditions for attaining salvation?

Also, I think ChessE really had his words manipulated. I don't thi ...[text shortened]... was the word you used? "Heathen"? I don't think that would be a proper label either.

True or False, according to scripture: that BOTH faith (in Christ) AND works are NECESSARY conditions for attaining salvation?

This really depends on who you ask. I believe that both faith and works are necessary to accept Jesus.

Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. (Why call yee me Lord and do not the thing that I say?)

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder for them that diligently seek him.

James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

I think that these passages make it clear that if we don’t do the good works that Jesus tells us to do, we don’t accept him and our faith is dead, and without faith it is impossible for us to please God.

I think you’ll find that most Christians are opposed to the whole “saved by works” argument. I agree with them half way. Both faith and works are necessary. One cannot exist without the other. A coin cannot exist without two sides. These types of distinctions are the kinds that seem to plague my debates… 😞

Also, I think ChessE really had his words manipulated. I don't think he ever said that following getting saved he would be without sin; he only said that the saved should attempt to lead a life without sin (after all, if you believe that free will is a mechanism by which the agent is free to choose to do good or evil or morally neutral actions [which is a woefully inadequate definition in my opinion but...]; and if you further assume that humans possess free will at all times; then you must conclude that it is at least possible that one could live entirely free from committing evil actions, right?). In that sense, CE is saying that it is not accurate to label himself as a "sinner" because "one who continually strives to not sin (but who may well occasionally slip up and sin)" is not properly described by the word "sinner". Is that right, CE?

Yes, this is how I interpret Jesus’ teachings. Very well said btw. Thanks for clarifying my words. I seem to lack your finesse.

If that is right, then anyone who continually strives to do good by a correct ethical code is not properly labeled as a "sinner" either -- regardless of whether he believes in God or not, don't you agree?

Yes, very true.

Or what was the word you used? "Heathen"? I don't think that would be a proper label either.

Actually, I said that most people are not wicked or heathens. Personally I think that the large majority of people are descent and have moral values regardless of their religion. To me heathens are just the ones who live as if moral values did not exist, basically the criminals, etc. I certainly don’t have any problem associating with people, and I usually assume that they’re good by default. Traditionally the term heathen has been used to describe anybody who wasn’t a strict Christian so it may not be the best term to use.

Originally posted by powershaker
Faith is dead without works. But, one cannot work to be saved. He also must have faith. How can you be saved if you treat your brother horribly - if you do not help the poor, if you do not turn the other cheek, if you do not leave vengeance to the Lord? Also, I thought it might be beneficial to you all if you could see the face of God: www.777new ed. It is time for the end, for all things to be fulfilled. Just click on the STORY OF THE MONTH.

Faith is dead without works. But, one cannot work to be saved. He also must have faith. How can you be saved if you treat your brother horribly - if you do not help the poor, if you do not turn the other cheek, if you do not leave vengeance to the Lord?

I agree. I also consider prayer to be a good work that most Christians know God rewards.