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Originally posted by jaywillI do not believe that the text that trinitarians cite in the book of revelation is withI cannot see what your objection is? If Michael is the Archangel is Jesus, then why cant he welcome those mentioned in John that you cite.
[b]"Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts.
I am the FIRST and I am the LAST, And apart from Me THERE IS NO GOD." (Isaiah 44:6 my emphasis)
No ives forever and ever.
If you do not believe, we of the Christian church do believe.[/b]
reference to Jesus at all, its one of those texts which trinitarians like to cite simply
because it may be construed as such, while not being explicit. Look Jaywill, if you
are a trinitarian, you believe that,
1, Jesus prays to himself
2. resurrects himself while he is dead
3, ascends to heaven to himself, subjects himself to himself, while he waits for
himself to hand over the kingdom to himself
4.you believe that while he was dying on a torture stake that he cried out to himself,
on behalf of himself stating, why have I forsaken myself.
Did I state that this appears to me to be utter nonsense?
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Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I do not believe that the text that trinitarians cite in the book of revelation is with
reference to Jesus at all, its one of those texts which trinitarians like to cite simply
because it may be construed as such, while not being explicit. Look Jaywill, if you
are a trinitarian, you believe that,
1, Jesus prays to himself
2. resurrects hi ...[text shortened]... ting, why have I forsaken myself.
Did I state that this appears to me to be utter nonsense?
I do not believe that the text that trinitarians cite in the book of revelation is with reference to Jesus at all,
I think you are seeking to weaken the force of the passage by loosely lumping into a group of passages you are skeptical about.
Do you really mean that John crumbling before One who looked like "the Son of Man" in verse 13 is NOT falling before JESUS ?
Do you really mean that the One who laid His right hand on John and spoke to him "Do not fear; I am the First and the Last" is NOT the Son of Man whom John turned to see and to hear His voice as many waters ?
its one of those texts which trinitarians like to cite simply
because it may be construed as such, while not being explicit. Look Jaywill, if you are a trinitarian, you believe that,
You are generalizing. This is SPECIFIC. Either the Son of Man who appears to John in verses 13-15 is speaking or you have to explain HOW it could be someone else.
"And in the midst of the lampstands One like the Son of Man ... (v.13)
... And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead; and He laid His right hand on me, SAYING, Do not fear; I am the First and the Last .."
Do not fall back on some vague general obfuscation about a group of trinatarian verses.
1, Jesus prays to himself
No Jesus does not pray to Himself.
And in Zecahriah 2 Jehovah of hosts sends Jehovah of hosts. God sends God. God - Jehovah of hosts is BOTH the SENDER and the SENT ONE.
Zechariah 2:8-11
You know "WONDERFUL" (Isaiah 9:6) means that NOTHING is too hard for the Lord.
Wonderful is full of wonder.
2. resurrects himself while he is dead
3, ascends to heaven to himself, subjects himself to himself, while he waits for
himself to hand over the kingdom to himself
4.you believe that while he was dying on a torture stake that he cried out to himself, on behalf of himself stating, why have I forsaken myself.
The ancient brothers looked at these paradoxes that you suggest and in order to defend against the teachers saying that Jesus was not God incarnate, they spoke of Triune God.
Experience is what makes it make sense.
Romans 8:9-11
Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I do not believe that the text that trinitarians cite in the book of revelation is with
reference to Jesus at all, its one of those texts which trinitarians like to cite simply
because it may be construed as such, while not being explicit. Look Jaywill, if you
are a trinitarian, you believe that,
1, Jesus prays to himself
2. resurrects hi ...[text shortened]... ting, why have I forsaken myself.
Did I state that this appears to me to be utter nonsense?
Did I state that this appears to me to be utter nonsense?
Consider.
"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in those who are perishing.
In whom the god of this age has blinded the thoughts of the unbelievers that the illumination of he gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine on them." (2 Cor. 4:4,5)
I sympathize with the perplexity of your mind. But the command is whosever believes. It is not to whosoever can explain.
If you are not certain you have received the Lord Jesus into your heart you can forget about doctrine and come to the Person, the living and available Person of Jesus to let Him into your heart.
You know the peace of Christ surpasses every man's understanding.
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Originally posted by jaywillThis is what is required Jaywill...Did I state that this appears to me to be utter nonsense?
Consider.
[b]"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in those who are perishing.
In whom the god of this age has blinded the thoughts of the unbelievers that the illumination of he gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine on the ...[text shortened]... im into your heart.
You know the peace of Christ surpasses every man's understanding.[/b]
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Triune, Trinity .. are all man's fabrications .. You welcome to believe in it but you have no authority to change the doctrines laid down by Christ and Paul. That is a sin.
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Originally posted by Rajk999
This is what is required Jaywill...
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Triune, Trinity .. are all man but you have no authority to change the doctrines laid down by Christ and Paul. That is a sin.
This is what is required Jaywill...
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Triune, Trinity .. are all man's fabrications .. You welcome to believe in it but you have no authority to change the doctrines laid down by Christ and Paul. That is a sin.
Do you think a Christian should remain ever a "babe" in Christ ?
Paul said that God desired all men to be saved ... AND ... to come to the FULL knowledge of the truth.
I DO agree with you that to be saved one need not know that much. But though that takes care of your purpose to be rescued, what about God's eternal purpose that you come to the full knowledge of the truth ?
Now, while I do sympathize with your pointing out the simplicity of the truth, I have to ALSO point out that it was not "trinitarians" who wrote that the Word was WITH God and WAS GOD.
Now that is simply very mysterious. But the Apostle wrote that. And Jesus said He was the "I AM" identifying Himself with the God of the Exodus.
Why twist it and blame it on "trinitarians" ???
Rather, some of us want to grow from the milk of the word to the more solid meat of the word.
If you wish to remain an infant, that is your choice. Some of us want to grow. And we are not ADDING utterances TO the Bible. We are merely paying more attention to the ones that are there.
Let no man bother me that I believe the bible's revelation in the three - one God.
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Originally posted by jaywillThe book of Galatians. Read it. Anyone who changes the gospel of Paul is accursed.
[quote] This is what is required Jaywill...
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Triune, Trinity .. are all Let no man bother me that I believe the bible's revelation in the three - one God.
The Jews of Galatia could be as pious and as perfect as they liked and gotten as much solid meat as they liked. They could have followed every last instruction of the law of Moses. But what they were NOT entitled to do was to tell others they they have to do anything [circumcision in their case] or believe anything [triune god in your case] that Paul did not preach, in order to get salvation
Salvation is through the blood of Christ. We are required to believe that God sent Christ his son who came and died for us. We are to believe that he will return to set up his kingdom, and judge us according to our works. Therefore any extra you want to believe or do must be in the direction of what was preached by Paul and the Apostles - good works. life in Christ which shows that you are changed by the spirit of Christ.
Getting up on a forum and proclaiming that believers and followers of Christ have to believe in some fabrication called the triune God is a sin and you fall squarely in the category of accursed by Paul for changing his Gospel.
Your 'meat' and your 'knowledge' has puffed you up and you have become like the Scribes and Pharisees [and JWs who you condemn].
Originally posted by FMFWell it would have to make sense though and still not being rude here, but most of it seems to ramble and not prove the point he's trying to make. If the trinity were the truth of God then I'm sure it might but none of the scriptures he uses proves it at all but instead disproves it.
A typical jaywill post is about 700 words long. That's all. He is the most scholarly and consistently decent Christian 'preacher' on this forum. You say if you were a theology student, such 700 word texts - dealing with a point of contention or explanation - complete with references and quotes, wouldn't work?
Originally posted by Rajk999So to you, Jesus was only human born of two humans like the rest of us.
The book of Galatians. Read it. Anyone who changes the gospel of Paul is accursed.
The Jews of Galatia could be as pious and as perfect as they liked and gotten as much solid meat as they liked. They could have followed every last instruction of the law of Moses. But what they were NOT entitled to do was to tell others they they have to do anything [cir ...[text shortened]... puffed you up and you have become like the Scribes and Pharisees [and JWs who you condemn].
How in the heck could his death on the cross and his blood as a human
save all humanity? I can not see how another human's blood could save
anyone else, no matter how good he behaved, much less the whole
human race, which includes everyone that ever lived and is going to
live in the future for all eternity. Maybe you could could explain it to
the rest of use since you claim to be so wise. Go ahead Mr. Smug. 😏
Originally posted by jaywillI AM, so everyone who states, I AM, aligns themselves with the God in Exodus, is this
[quote] This is what is required Jaywill...
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Triune, Trinity .. are all ...[text shortened]... Let no man bother me that I believe the bible's revelation in the three - one God.
really your reasoning.
Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I AM, so everyone who states, I AM, aligns themselves with the God in Exodus, is this
really your reasoning.
I AM, so everyone who states, I AM, aligns themselves with the God in Exodus, is this really your reasoning.
That rebuttal may work down at the Kingdom Hall. It does not work with many of us Bible readers down through the centries.
We noticed that He did not simply say "I AM" .
He said "Before Abraham came into being, I AM" .
And we will not grumble and complain about "trinitarians" putting that verse in John's Gospel.
At any rate, the Jews standing around seemed to have no problem catching what the Lord Jesus was saying. Immediately they sought to carry out the execcution for blasphemy.
Believe what you wish. I believe that John included this passage to demonstrate WHY he also had to write that the Word that was with God was God.
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Originally posted by jaywillNo Jaywill, your reasoning may work with persons who are not versed with eitherI AM, so everyone who states, I AM, aligns themselves with the God in Exodus, is this really your reasoning.
That rebuttal may work down at the Kingdom Hall. It does not work with many of us Bible readers down through the centries.
We noticed that He did not simply say [b]"I AM" .
He said "Before Abraham came into bei passage to demonstrate WHY he also had to write that the Word that was with God was God.
idiomatic Greek or Hebrew, but with those who are disposed to believe anything on the
basis of a middle aged translation. Now you will tell the forum why you have
translated the text in Hebrew as I AM, and why you are giving special significance to
the idiomatic Greek which records the words of Christ, when in other instances, when
the same idiom appears you have not done so.
are we now to put our faith in the enemies of the Christ, is it really their understanding
that you are basing your faith, is it? Christ did not make himself equal to God, his
enemies are merely saying that he did, and you, rather ironically, are giving credence
to their words.
Your beliefs are yours but you cannot demonstrate even a semblance of why they
are Biblical.
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Originally posted by Rajk999
The book of Galatians. Read it. Anyone who changes the gospel of Paul is accursed.
The Jews of Galatia could be as pious and as perfect as they liked and gotten as much solid meat as they liked. They could have followed every last instruction of the law of Moses. But what they were NOT entitled to do was to tell others they they have to do anything [cir puffed you up and you have become like the Scribes and Pharisees [and JWs who you condemn].
The book of Galatians. Read it. Anyone who changes the gospel of Paul is accursed.
Was this meant for me ? I have not changed the Gospel.
Of course I know Galatians. Would you like to fellowship about this wonderful book ?
The Jews of Galatia could be as pious and as perfect as they liked and gotten as much solid meat as they liked.
No, in fact the Galatian believers had a very difficult time not retreating and going BACK to Judiasm altogether because of the Judiazers.
But their diffiulties were around not accepting other matters of living under Grace and walking by the Spirit. Their particular troubles were along THOSE lines.
They could have followed every last instruction of the law of Moses. But what they were NOT entitled to do was to tell others they they have to do anything [circumcision in their case] or believe anything [triune god in your case] that Paul did not preach, in order to get salvation
But they had difficulty realizing that Christ had actually been dispensed into them and needed to take shape, be formed in them for their continuation. This is why Paul wrote them:
"My children, with whom I travail again in birth until Christ be formed in you." (Gal. 4:18)
Now please consider. Paul agonizes that CHRIST BE FORMED in them.
Are they saved ? Yes indeed. They have been born of the Spirit. They have been born again. They have begun the spiritual life of a Christian disciple. Do you agree.
But they needed to be transformed and conformed into His image. Christ living in them needed to take shape, manifest Himself more and more in their tastes, attitudes, actions, reactions, thought life, speech.
Remember what I wrote about God DISPENSING Himself into man ?
Remember anything at all about me saying God imparts His life and nature into His people to conform them to the image of Christ ?
This is CHRIST BEING FORMED in those who are saved. This is Christ making more and more His home in our hearts through faith. And this is a matter of none other but God growing by "the growth of God" in man.
So we should understand that the encrease of Christ, His being formed in us as diciples is in fact the habitation of God growing that GOD Himself may have a living dwelling place in His redeemed people.
Huh? Arguest Thou still?
" .. fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God ... being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone;
In WHOM [in Christ Jesus] all the BUILDING ..., being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;
In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit." (See Eph. 2:19-22)
The formation of Christ IN the believers is also the GROWING of the human habitation of GOD in spirit. Christ is being formed and GOD is filling His living temple.
The growth of Christ in the believers is the dispensing of GOD into the church, the living dwelling place of God. And HOW ? By the Spirit of course which is so emphasized in Galatians.
Christ is in the believers. God is filling the human temple, to habitation of God in spirit.
Granted, this is not elementary. But we need this apostolic labor and vision. Once people get saved, then what ? They need to see the growth of Christ within them is the dispensing of God into the living habitation.
Can you see that Christ being FORMED in the Galatian Christians is also God being dispensed into them for the formation of the living dwelling place of God ?
She is also called at the end of his epistle "the Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16)
Now please, have another little portion of meat. It is good. You'll learn to like it.
Salvation is through the blood of Christ. We are required to believe that God sent Christ his son who came and died for us. We are to believe that he will return to set up his kingdom, and judge us according to our works. Therefore any extra you want to believe or do must be in the direction of what was preached by Paul and the Apostles - good works. life in Christ which shows that you are changed by the spirit of Christ.
Getting up on a forum and proclaiming that believers and followers of Christ have to believe in some fabrication called the triune God is a sin and you fall squarely in the category of accursed by Paul for changing his Gospel.
Your 'meat' and your 'knowledge' has puffed you up and you have become like the Scribes and Pharisees [and JWs who you condemn].
Brother, brother ! You rebuke me unnecessarily. Maybe I can respond to this latter.
Originally posted by jaywillno he rebukes you because you need it, any more and i will hand you over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh!The book of Galatians. Read it. Anyone who changes the gospel of Paul is accursed.
Was this meant for me ? I have not changed the Gospel.
Of course I know Galatians. Would you like to fellowship about this wonderful book ?
[quote]
The Jews of Galatia could be as pious and as perfect as they liked and gotten as much solid m ...[text shortened]... rother, brother ! You rebuke me unnecessarily. Maybe I can respond to this latter.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieStop jumping around like a grasshopper in a hen house.
No Jaywill, your reasoning may work with persons who are not versed with either
idiomatic Greek or Hebrew, but with those who are disposed to believe anything on the
basis of a middle aged translation. Now you will tell the forum why you have
translated the text in Hebrew as I AM, and why you are giving special significance to
the idiomatic ...[text shortened]...
Your beliefs are yours but you cannot demonstrate even a semblance of why they
are Biblical.
FIRST show me that the One who says He is the First and the Last in Revelation 1:8 is not the One who appeared to John as "the Son of Man".