10 Jan 12
2 edits
Originally posted by RJHindsHe still does not understand - God - God incarnated in Jesus - God in Jesus dispensed into His redeemed people.
This is no proof against the Trinity. Jesus is simply identifying, like
a brother, with His disciples. As brothers in Christ we all have the
same God and Father. We are told to pray, "Our Father in heaven... "
The Trinity is really a kind of journey of the Divine Being imparting from Himself into man.
He only understands like a Moslem or a Judiazer - an objective God in heaven, outside.
I tried in to get this poster to consider the interchangeable use of titles for the indwelling Divine Being being dispensed into the diciples -
The Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, Christ, the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead, His Spirit.
This is the real true teaching on the Trinity - God branching out into humanity and saving us by redemption and entering into us to impart Himself that we might live Him out.
10 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywillsure, but it doesn't say any ridiculous theory about god is to be believed.
Not so. Go back and look at the [b]Jeremiah passage quoted above.
Does it not say that nothing is too hard for this Mighty God ?
JEREMIAH 32:17,18 - "Ah Lord Jehovah! behold, thou hast made the heavens and the earth by thy great power and by thine outstretched arm; there is nothing too hard for thee (v.17)
The word ther ...[text shortened]... is is why we are called to believe ... to taste and see that the Lord is good..[/b]
"I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God"
god has no god.
10 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywillyou labeled this the important part:
Here is the important part.
"Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me ? The words that I say to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me does His works.
Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; but if not, believe because of the works themselves." (See John 14:8-11)
My anal ...[text shortened]... Father and the Father is living in Him.
hn 14:11[/b] that way.
constructive comments ?[/b]
"Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me ? The words that I say to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me does His works.
Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; but if not, believe because of the works themselves." (See John 14:8-11)
but if you bothered to read down a few more verses...
"At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. " (John 14:20)
everybody is in everybody, so everybody must be the almighty god!
another trinity shattering verse:
John 12:44 "Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me."
and another
Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
all this harkens back to my declaration that john disproves any notion of a trinity rather than the other way around.
10 Jan 12
6 edits
Originally posted by VoidSpirit
you labeled this the important part:
[quote] [b]"Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me ? The words that I say to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me does His works.
Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; but if not, believe because of the works themselves." (See John 14:8-1 declaration that john disproves any notion of a trinity rather than the other way around.
but if you bothered to read down a few more verses...[/b]
"At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. " (John 14:20)
I did not fail to notice versee 20. I am limited.
Now "that day" is the day of the resurrection of Christ when He dispenses Himself into His disciples. This is entirely consistent with what I have been writing all along about the Triune God dispensing His life into His redeemed people.
He is God the Almighty by uncreated life and by incarnation. In His death and resurrection His people become God by redemption, regeneration, and conformation into the image of Christ.
"Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers; And those whom He predestinated, these He also called; and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those whom He justified, these He also glorified." (Romans 8:29,30)
From His resurrection God begins to dispense Himself into His new sons to make them partners and companions of His Son -
"But of the Son, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of exultant joy above Your partners." (Heb. 1:8-9) [
1.) The Son of God is addressed as God.
2.) The Son of God has His throne forever and ever, and His kingdom.
3.) The Son of God has His God.
4.) The Son of God has His partners or companions.
5.) The Son of God is anointed above all these His companions and partners.
In other words, He SHARES an experience with them but as the HEAD.
So John 14:20 is simply another preview into this full and complete salvation of God's incarnation, dispensing, and the saves participation in the enlargement of Christ for the building of the dwelling place of God, the Father's house.
From our individual standpoint we Christians may place various dates when we received Christ and entered into Him. From the divine viewpoint all the partners and companions of Christ were regenerated on the day Christ rose from the day - "that day".
Here Peter confirms that - " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."
It was on "THAT DAY" that the Son of God, God, became the Firstborn Son of God in resurrection. And the believers, from the divine viewpoint, were all born again in His resurrection from the dead.
Of course regeneration means that He is in the believers and the believers are in Him.
"Yet a little while and the world beholds Me no longer, but you behold Me; because I live You also shall live.
In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." (v.19,20)
Yes, in God's full salvation, we become God but not in His Godhead. We become God through becoming partakers of the divine nature as the many sons of God to enlarge Christ into a corporate Christ.
" ... He has granted to us precious and exxceedingly great promises that through these you might become partakers of the divine nature ..." (2 Peter 1:4)
everybody is in everybody, so everybody must be the almighty god!
I get the impression that you know something about church history, yet in a rather jaded and selective way.
You should review the teachings of the Greek Orthodox side of Christiandom. Theosis is that part of salvation into which the saved become God through His total salvific operation. I call this deification.
Now some are astounded when I tell them that indeed the ones brought into God become God. They think I must mean that each one of the saved individually can become God to be worshipped. We do not mean that.
The New Testament does mean that Christ, Who is God incarnate, gains an enlagement and an encrease as a CORPORATE expression of God mingled with man.
I can write much more. I am trying not to exhaust the readers intake on one post.
another trinity shattering verse:
The verse is by no means a "trinity shattering verse". It is a trinity confirming verse.
I told you that what the Trinity is cannot really be separated from His operation - what the Trinity is doing.
What IS the Triune God doing in this universe. What is the Trinity operating. I have said many times that the Father - Son - Holy Spirit God is DISPENSING His life and nature into man.
He is God by being uncreated and being incarnated. The saved become the corporate enlargement of God not by incarnation but through regeneration and full salvation. This is how the Firstborn Son (Hebrews 1:6 Who is addressed as God ... "But of the Son, Your throne O God ..." (v.8) gains partners and companions -
" ... therefore God, has anointed You with the oil of exultant joy ABOVE Your partners." (v.9)
Your sample really CONFIRMS all that I have been writing. Thankyou.
John 12:44 "Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me."
This verse simply confirms the humiliy of the Son of God. Throughout the Gospels Jesus speaks in this manner.
Not only does God express Himself as Perfect Authority. He also expresses Himself as Perfect Submission and Perfect Humility.
and another
Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
This also does not contradict the incarnation of God in the man the Lord Jesus.
But the One of Whom it said[b]"Of the Son, Your throne O God" is incarnated and has human partners and human companions. He is their model of submission. He is also the God Spirit Who will come into them bringing Himself and His Father to make an abode in them -
" ... If anyone loves Me, ... My Father will love him, and We will come to Him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
The Triune God becomes the very sphere and realm that men are brought into. They are no longer "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18) .
[/b]
all this harkens back to my declaration that john disproves any notion of a trinity rather than the other way around.
Quite the contrary. The passages you site confirm the DISPENSING of the Triune God as His eternal purpose and full salvation.
The believers become God in life and nature and expression but not in His Godhead. He is the SOURCE. Christ is the HEAD of this deification. The church is the BODY of this relationship.
The Bible really closes with God marrying Mrs. God. You have a Bride and a Wife which is a COLLECTIVE - a city New Jerusalem. That is GOD dispensed into billions of people to make them God in life and in nature but not in His Godhead.
Remember before, I mentioned New Jerusalem as symbolic and you proudly chided me as if I FINALLY got it ?
I did not FINALLY get it. I noticed a long time ago that Revelation 1:1 says that the Revelation was made known to John "BY SIGNS". I got to know a long time ago that Revelation chapters 21 and 22 show a consumate "SIGN" expressing a profound climax of the whole Bible and of the whole human history.
I did not finally get it. Rather I hope that you would finally get it. What we see there in the "sign" of the New Jerusalem is Mrs. Jesus Christ. We see Mrs. God. We see a collective entity who through Christ's full salvation has received the full dispensing of the Trinity to MATCH God.
This a kind of Divine Romance. God imparts Himself into His people to produce a "city" that matches Him in life and nature and expression and glory.
However, He is the Source and Head of this union. His people are the saved, the recipients of this deification process. Rather than "alienated from the life of God" they are "swallowed up in life" .
They become God in life and nature but not as an object of worship or in His Godhead.
Enough for this post.
10 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by VoidSpiritYou do remember that it is written in the scriptures that God the Father
sure, but it doesn't say any ridiculous theory about god is to be believed.
"I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God"
god has no god.
calls the Son, God don't you? Why should you not believe the truth?
Christ says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life."
10 Jan 12
9 edits
Let's look at the Hebrews verse and its points again - shorter version:
"But of the Son, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of exultant joy above Your partners." (Heb. 1:8-9)
1.) The Son of God is addressed as God.
2.) The Son of God has His throne forever and ever, and His kingdom.
3.) The Son of God has His God.
4.) The Son of God has His partners or companions.
5.) The Son of God is anointed above all these His companions and partners.
Plus 6.
6.) The Son is the God Who is the Creator of the heavens and earth!
" ... Your God has anointed You with the oil of exultant joy above Your partners"; (Heb. 1:9b)
[b]"And, "You in the beginning, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands;
They will perish, but You remain perpetually; and they all will become old like a garment ... You are the same, and Your years will not fail" " (See v.11,12)
[/b]
=========================================
Who is the writer talking about? The writer is speaking of the Son of God, Jesus Christ.
Once again Hebrews 1:5 - 12 teaches -
1.) The Son of God is addressed as God.
2.) The Son of God has His throne forever and ever, and His kingdom.
3.) The Son of God has His God.
4.) The Son of God has His partners or companions.
5.) The Son of God is anointed above all these His companions and partners.
6.) The Son is the God Who is Creator of the heavens and earth!
10 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillJaywill, first of all the words of Christ is the most precise thing you can get for exactly who he is and what is his relationship with God. Its not Isaiah or Thomas or anyone else.
In this thread [b]"Is the Trinity an ESSENTIAL truth to the Bible?" which I started, I believe I have YET to answer that question with a Yes or a No.
It was open to discussion. I felt to defend the revelation of the three-one God in Scripture. But I never said whether I believe if the trinity is Essential or not to the Bible.
Is that a fair stat rologue forbids me to understand John 14:11 that way.
constructive comments ?[/b]
Prioritizing the Bible is lacking in many an analysis and interpretation, and that is the reason for the thousands of sects that claim to be Christian. Christ first, Paul second and the rest of the Bible a distant third place when it comes to WHAT IS ESSENTIAL for salvation. Christ is FIRST.
Next you quoted John 14:8-11..
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
And your analysis was :
Here Jesus would PREFER that we believe in Him that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. But if we cannot He encourages us to BELIEVE in Him because of the works. To me this means believe that He is the living and acting God. As a human man He says He is living in the Father and the Father is living in Him.
So because Christ said he is in God and God is in him, you think that means that Christ is God. So how about this verse ..
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
So just a few verses down, Christ says the same thing about he being in the disciples. So therefore ..
- CHRIST IS IN GOD
- THE DISCIPLES ARE IN CHRIST
- CHRIST IS IN THE DISCIPLES.
Using your same logic for John 14:11, we can conclude that ..
- THE DISCIPLES IS CHRIST
- CHRIST IS THE DISCIPLES
- THEY ARE THIRTEEN ENTITIES IN ONE
So if you accept that Christ is God then you have to accept that the DISCIPLES AND CHRIST ARE ONE AND THE SAME ENTITY.
Do you also accept that?
10 Jan 12
4 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999
Jaywill, first of all the words of Christ is the most precise thing you can get for exactly who he is and what is his relationship with God. Its not Isaiah or Thomas or anyone else.
Prioritizing the Bible is lacking in many an analysis and interpretation, and that is the reason for the thousands of sects that claim to be Christian.
Christ first, Paul s o accept that the DISCIPLES AND CHRIST ARE ONE AND THE SAME ENTITY.
Do you also accept that?
Jaywill, first of all the words of Christ is the most precise thing you can get for exactly who he is and what is his relationship with God. Its not Isaiah or Thomas or anyone else.
The words of Christ are exceedingly important. But we believe that "all Scripture is God breathed ...". I take the whole Bible as the word of Christ.
So I agree with your "red letters" version of the words of Christ. No problem. But I do not take it to the point that I disbelieve "ALL SCRIPTURE".
Having said that the man Jesus also taught that He was God incarnate by His own words, ie. "the red letters".
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I desired to gather your children together, the way a hen gaathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!" (Matt. 23:37)
It was always God Himself who cared for Jerusalem, as a bird flutters over her young (Isa.31:5; Deut 32:11-12). For Jesus to say "I desired to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings," was for Jesus to indicate that He was God Himself.
Prioritizing the Bible is lacking in many an analysis and interpretation, and that is the reason for the thousands of sects that claim to be Christian.
I have shown you a passage in which Jesus teaches that He is God Himself.
Of course a confirming passage would be John 1:1,14 or Isaiah 9:6.
All such passages have high priority. Having said that, I hasten to add that the passages in which Jesus shows plainly that He is a normal human man are equally important.
We should embrace the whole revelation and not fight down one aspect for the sake of another. Christ - God/Man. He's Wonderful.
Christ first, Paul second and the rest of the Bible a distant third place when it comes to WHAT IS ESSENTIAL for salvation. Christ is FIRST.
The thread said what is ESSENTIAL truth of the Bible.
You are adjusting somewhat to what is ESSENTIAL to salvation.
Whether I am saved or not saved, that Jesus Christ is God incarnate is ESSENTIAL to the Bible.
I may not object to "Christ first, Paul second" sometimes. But that is not "Christ important, Paul not important".
Without Paul's book of Romans how FAR would we get into really sorting out the real essentials of the Gospel of Jesus ? It is arguable.
But let is see what the attitude of Jesus was concerning those whom He sent:
"He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who has sent Me." (Matt. 10:40)
"And He said to them, Whoever receives this little child because of My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me." (Luke 9:48)
While I heartily agree that the words of Jesus' mouth must be paid very close attention to up front, we also need the humility to receive those sent to us by Jesus.
Some who have taken your view to an extreme have accused the apostle Paul of messing up the entire Gospel of Jesus. 'We like Jesus. But Paul messed everything up."
I do not go along with that extreme for one second. At any rate I have used both the words of the mouth of Jesus and the ALL SCRIPTURE which is given by inspiration of God, to show the Triune God is a valid revelation of the Bible.
No one has been able to defeat this on this Forum.
Next you quoted John 14:8-11..
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
And your analysis was :
Here Jesus would PREFER that we believe in Him that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. But if we cannot He encourages us to BELIEVE in Him because of the works.
To me this means believe that He is the living and acting God. As a human man He says He is living in the Father and the Father is living in Him.
So because Christ said he is in God and God is in him, you think that means that Christ is God.
So how about this verse ..
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
So just a few verses down, Christ says the same thing about he being in the disciples. So therefore ..
- CHRIST IS IN GOD
- THE DISCIPLES ARE IN CHRIST
- CHRIST IS IN THE DISCIPLES.
Using your same logic for John 14:11, we can conclude that ..
- THE DISCIPLES IS CHRIST
- CHRIST IS THE DISCIPLES
- THEY ARE THIRTEEN ENTITIES IN ONE
So if you accept that Christ is God then you have to accept that the DISCIPLES AND CHRIST ARE ONE AND THE SAME ENTITY.
Do you also accept that?
Yes Christ in dispensed into His people. That is what the Bible teaches.
When Paul was persecuting the disciples Jesus said "Why do you persecute Me?"
"And he [Saul] fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, Saul, Saul, why are you presecuting Me?
And he said, Who are You, Lord ? And He said, I am Jesus, whom you persecute." (Acts 9:4,5)
I do not believe that Paul EVER forgot this great revelation. This vision impressed him for the rest of his life.
Jesus did not say "Why are you persecuting My people".
He did not say "Why are you persecuting My Christians."
He did not even say "Why are you persecuting My church."
Jesus Christ said " ... Saul, Saul, WHY ARE YOU PERSECUTING ME ?"
Thus the leading Apostle who wrote some 13 of the New Testament books emphatically teaches of the Body of Christ. Through Christ's salavation the forgiven and redeemed and regenerated sinners are under the dispensing of God Himself, in Christ, as the Spirit into their whole beings.
Our destiny is to be "swallowed up by life" (2 Cor. 5:4) . Redeemed sinners, born of God, conformed, transformed, sanctified, resurrected, raptured, glorified and SWALLOWED UP in the Divine Life. That is our destiny as Christians.
Christ is dispensing Himself into His people. And Paul called the Body "THE CHRIST" in First Corinthians 12:12 -
"For even as the body is one and has many members, yet all the members of the body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ."
Grasp here that Paul is saying that the church is THE CHRIST. - " ... all the members of the body, being many, are one body, SO ALSO IS ... THE CHRIST"
Now we may stagger at this in hesitation. But the proper context and understanding is crucial. God is working CHRIST into a group of people. God is DISPENSING Christ into a corporate Body of Christ to make that Body ... the church ... the enlargement and expansion of CHRIST.
Rather than DUMB DOWN the New Testament, we should exercise our faith and stand on the divine facts.
If you stagger at the teaching that the new testament church Paul calls, the Christ, then you vastly underestimate the efficacy of Christ's salvation. He has wrought Himself into forgiven sinners and firmly attached us to Himself.
He is the true vine and we are the branches in the vine. Together as the true vine and the abiding branches God has an organism which is Christ expanded and enlarged in a corporate entity of the mingling of God and man.
10 Jan 12
Let's look at the Hebrews verse and its points again - shorter version:
"But of the Son, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of exultant joy above Your partners." (Heb. 1:8-9)
1.) The Son of God is addressed as God.
2.) The Son of God has His throne forever and ever, and His kingdom.
3.) The Son of God has His God.
4.) The Son of God has His partners or companions.
5.) The Son of God is anointed above all these His companions and partners.
Plus 6.
6.) The Son is the God Who is the Creator of the heavens and earth!
" ... Your God has anointed You with the oil of exultant joy above Your partners"; (Heb. 1:9b)
"And, "You in the beginning, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands;
They will perish, but You remain perpetually; and they all will become old like a garment ... You are the same, and Your years will not fail" " (See v.11,12)
=========================================
Who is the writer talking about? The writer is speaking of the Son of God, Jesus Christ.
Once again Hebrews 1:5 - 12 teaches -
1.) The Son of God is addressed as God.
2.) The Son of God has His throne forever and ever, and His kingdom.
3.) The Son of God has His God.
4.) The Son of God has His partners or companions.
5.) The Son of God is anointed above all these His companions and partners.
6.) The Son is the God Who is Creator of the heavens and earth!
I challenge anyone to come and refute this.
10 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywillI agree ..Jaywill, first of all the words of Christ is the most precise thing you can get for exactly who he is and what is his relationship with God. Its not Isaiah or Thomas or anyone else.
The words of Christ are exceedingly important. But we believe that [b]"all Scripture is God breathed ...". I take the whole Bible as the word of Christ ...[text shortened]... corporate entity of the mingling of God and man.[/b]
- we are all one in Christ Jesus.
- Christ is one with God.
- God is in Christ
- Christ is in Us his followers
BUT ... we are all still separate and distinct entities.
The same way Christ and God are separate and distinct.
10 Jan 12
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999
I agree ..
- we are all one in Christ Jesus.
- Christ is one with God.
- God is in Christ
- Christ is in Us his followers
BUT ... we are all still separate and distinct entities.
The same way Christ and God are separate and distinct.
I agree ..
- we are all one in Christ Jesus.
But maybe you are just giving lip service to this without really meaning it.
Perhaps your "oneness in Christ" is like all the members of the Chicago Bulls are in "oneness".
I see the oneness in Christ like the flow of an electrical current between light bulbs. The flow of the current produces a kind of "fellowship" between the bulbs. They are one in this circulating electrical current which connects them all together.
Do you believe that man is "spirit and soul and body" (1 Thess. 5:23) ?
I believe man is composed of the human spirit and human soul and human body - a tripartite man.
http://www.tripartiteman.org/
My human spirit has been joined to the Lord.
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor. 6:17)
Part of my being is Jesus Christ.
Part of the being of every Christian is Jesus Christ.
How can I be "one spirit" with the Lord and be "separate" from Him.
The opposite of being joined to the Lord would be "two spirits" separated.
But the Scripture does not say he who is joined to the Lord is two separated spirits. It says -
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17) [/b]
The TWO spirits, the regenerated human spirit and the Holy Spirit Who is God have been joined to be "one spirit".
Since I have used this board I have repeatedly used the term "MINGLE". This is a very apt word ( and a biblical word too) to discribed the joining of the believer to Christ.
To "mingle" two or more things together is to combine them so that the components remain distiquishable in the combination. So we Christians are not separate from the Lord. But we Christians are mingled with the Lord. And our spirit and the Holy Spirit.
If you do not believe that at least one part of the Christian is joined to the Lord to be "one spirit" I wonder what makes you different from a Moslem.
The Moslem will insist that they are SEPARATED from Allah. How are you different if you say the Christians are separated from God, separated from Christ, and separated from the Holy Spirit ?
Do you wish to change the Gospel to teach that he who is joined to the Lord is SEPARATED - two separated spirits ?
I want to teach the Gospel Paul taught.
- Christ is one with God.
- God is in Christ
- Christ is in Us his followers
BUT ... we are all still separate and distinct entities.
My Christ IS God. My God is the MAN Jesus Christ.
That is my confession.
The same way Christ and God are separate and distinct.
My faith is that the Son and the Father are distinct but NOT separate.
And since in His salvation God has been dispensed into my being to be my life, at least part of my being is God Himself for "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit".
I think we should stand upon faith in what the word of God says. The saved sinner is regenerated to be joined to the Lord - that the Lord Spirit and his human spirit have been mingled to become "one spirit".
Eventually the whole Christian will be "swallowed up by ZOE life" ( 2 Cor. 5:4)
Within is God as life, without is God as life. Full salvation will cause the saved to be completely "swallowed up by life" .
Praise Him for such a great salvation.
10 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywillAll I have to say is thank goodness you, Jaywill was not the one chosen to take the gospel of Christ to the Gentiles. You would have confused the living daylights out of everybody and turned them away from Christ.Jaywill, first of all the words of Christ is the most precise thing you can get for exactly who he is and what is his relationship with God. Its not Isaiah or Thomas or anyone else.
The words of Christ are exceedingly important. But we believe that [b]"all Scripture is God breathed ...". I take the whole Bible as the word of Christ ...[text shortened]... corporate entity of the mingling of God and man.[/b]
Pauls letters to the Gentiles are simple to understand.
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10 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999One reason Paul is simpler that Jaywill is that Jaywill is dealing with an issue that came to the front well after Paul, perhaps even unknowingly instigated in part by Paul. The issue is of course the reconciliation of the divinity of Jesus with the monotheism of the Jewish theology represented in the OT.
All I have to say is thank goodness you, Jaywill was not the one chosen to take the gospel of Christ to the Gentiles. You would have confused the living daylights out of everybody and turned them away from Christ.
Pauls letters to the Gentiles are simple to understand.
edit: represented in what became the OT.
"According to the author of the article on the Trinity in the current Encyclopædia Britannica, the doctrine of the Trinity developed as the earliest Christians harmonized, over several centuries, the monotheism of the Hebrew Scriptures with their understanding not only of Jesus but also of what they saw as the presence and power of God among them, a presence and power that they called the Holy Spirit."
wikipedia: trinity
10 Jan 12
Originally posted by Rajk999I don't regard that TODAY is somehow far LESS important than in that day. The great commission is still being carried out.
All I have to say is thank goodness you, Jaywill was not the one chosen to take the gospel of Christ to the Gentiles. You would have confused the living daylights out of everybody and turned them away from Christ.
Pauls letters to the Gentiles are simple to understand.
Now you are welcomed to have the criticism of me. But I have for the most part quoted our brother Paul. I have quoted "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" from Paul's letter.
You will have to blame Paul if this staggers you.
You know Peter, didn't react as you do. Peter said there were some things Paul wrote which were hard to understand. But he still recommended that the saints listen to him.
" .. even as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them concerning these things, in which some things are hard to understand, which the unlearned and unstable twist, as also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction" (2 Pet. 3:15b,16)
You see ? Not everything Paul wrote WAS that simple to understand. The elder apostle did not discourage the disciples from listening to him for that reason.
10 Jan 12
4 edits
Originally posted by JS357
One reason Paul is simpler that Jaywill is that Jaywill is dealing with an issue that came to the front well after Paul, perhaps even unknowingly instigated in part by Paul. The issue is of course the reconciliation of the divinity of Jesus with the monotheism of the Jewish theology represented in the OT.
edit: represented in what became the OT.
"Accordi ...[text shortened]... God among them, a presence and power that they called the Holy Spirit."
wikipedia: trinity
"According to the author of the article on the Trinity in the current Encyclopædia Britannica, the doctrine of the Trinity developed as the earliest Christians harmonized, over several centuries, the monotheism of the Hebrew Scriptures with their understanding not only of Jesus but also of what they saw as the presence and power of God among them, a presence and power that they called the Holy Spirit."
I have tried to show that the FACT of the Father - God, the Son - God, the Holy Spirit - God is there in the Scripture.
I have never claimed that the twelve apostles went about using the word "Trinity" or "hypostasis" or "co-inherance" etc. of latter jargon of the Christian scholars.
But the "church fathers" added some vocabulary to discuss the truths that were already THERE in the Bible.
The early Christians were too busy experiencing and enjoying the Three-One God. Only latter did the vocabulary arise to defend against intellectual attacks against the Person of Christ. They spoke in a matter of fact way about the experience.