Originally posted by jaywillquote:I say I dont understand becuase you started off as if you were taking up the challenge of VoidSpirit to explain how 'the head of Christ is God' does not make the trinity doctrine absurd.
But you went off on a tangent and did not deal with the issue.
I see.
Well there are THREE alternatives open to me.
1.) I can admit tha ...[text shortened]...
I refuse to suppress one aspect, (either one) of the paradox in order to uphold the other.
1.) I can admit that the head of Christ is God (1 Cor. 11:3)
And then I can use that verse to deny John 1:1 that the Word was God.
2.) I can admit that the Word was God according to (John 1:1) and then use that verse to deny that the head of Christ is God (1 Cor. 11:1)
3.) Or I can believe both passages in humility and faith - The head of Christ is God (1 Cor. 11:3) and also the Word was God ( John 1:1)
I have found that the greatest blessing is in taking the third way. I believe all that the Bible has said about who Christ is.
I refuse to suppress one aspect, (either one) of the paradox in order to uphold the other.
Do you see this as suppressing something else? If so, what is it? If not, why do you call it a paradox?
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Originally posted by JS357[/b] The Triune God is the mother of all paradoxes.
quote:
[b]1.) I can admit that the head of Christ is God (1 Cor. 11:3)
And then I can use that verse to deny John 1:1 that the Word was God.
2.) I can admit that the Word was God according to (John 1:1) and then use that verse to deny that the head of Christ is God (1 Cor. 11:1)
3.) Or I can believe both passages in humility and faith - The head of Christ ...[text shortened]... see this as suppressing something else? If so, what is it? If not, why do you call it a paradox?
That is splendid if you see no paradox in this:
The head of Christ is God.
But Christ is the Word Who was God.
Some of us see a mysterious paradox in these two concepts.
I do not insist that you must see the paradox.
But many of us down through the ages have seen a paradox here and in orther concepts of the Bible.
The Word was with God.
The Word was God.
The verses in the New Testament about Father - Son - Holy Spirit are mostly on the level of "shop talk" or experiencial talk taking for granted that it is being comprehended what is being talked about.
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." (2 Cor. 13:14)
"But there are distinctions of gifts, but the same Spirit; (v.4)
And there are distinctions of ministry, yet the same Lord; (v.5)
And there are distinctions of operations, but the same God, who operates all things in all." (v6) (1 Cor. 12:4-6)
This is very experiencial fellowship about the subjective experience of the Father who is called God, the Son who is called God, and the Holy Spirit who is called God - the Trinity.
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Originally posted by jaywillI always find it unsatisfying (but sometimes necessary) to turn away from a paradox without resolving it. I will describe a trivial example, Achilles and the tortoise, "In a race where the slower has even a little head start, the quickest runner can never overtake the slowest, since the pursuer must first reach the point whence the pursued started, so that the slower must always hold a lead."
The Triune God is the mother of all paradoxes.
That is splendid if you see no paradox in this:
The head of Christ is God.
But Christ is the Word Who was God.
Some of us see a mysterious paradox in these two concepts.
I do not insist that you must see the paradox.
But many of us down through the ages have seen a paradox here and alled God, the Son who is called God, and the Holy Spirit who is called God - the Trinity.[/b]
But we all know the quicker usually can overtake the slower if the lead is not too much.
Usually my reason is that I don't have time to work on solving the paradox, or something else requires my attention.
It sounds to me like the paradox you are describing is of this form:
The Bible says God is like this.
The Bible says God is like that.
But something makes me think God can't be like this AND like that.
Now I can try to resolve the apparent paradox, or just set aside whatever that 'something' is, since I believe the Bible isn't wrong. (That's how I see what you are doing.)
I would say the 'something' is logic and reason.
I'm not being critical; I would say the trinity can only be accepted as a mystery.
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Originally posted by jaywillCan you explain why is the third way the greatest blessing?I say I dont understand becuase you started off as if you were taking up the challenge of VoidSpirit to explain how 'the head of Christ is God' does not make the trinity doctrine absurd.
But you went off on a tangent and did not deal with the issue.
I see.
Well there are THREE alternatives open to me.
1.) I can admit tha ...[text shortened]...
I refuse to suppress one aspect, (either one), of the paradox in order to uphold the other.
How exactly did you determine that?
In any case I can confirm that I accept the following from the Bible ;
- that there is a definite order :
First God
Second Christ
Third Man
- that God is the Father and Christ is the Son. Two separate and distinct entities with different ablities and attributes. There are some things known to God which Christ does not know. They cannot be the same.
- that both have divine qualities.
- that both these statements are compatible :
"Hear O Israel the Lord thy God is one God." and
" My Father and I are one." .. without having to resort to twisting the Bible.
The term the trinity is a useless term and adds nothing to the teachings of Christ or Paul. I think all it does is divide the brotherhood of Christ unnecessarily.
Originally posted by jaywillWho is the head of the Holy Spirit?and who is the head of jesus christ? if you can answer that question, you will know why the trinity is an absurd doctrine.
The Head of Jesus Christ is God - [b](1 Cor. 11:3)
But both the revelation and the experience of the Three-one God is not absurd. Is probably a filter to filter out the pride of man.
It is a parado ...[text shortened]... Him Who raised Jesus from the dead, His Spirit, and His Christ.
I stop here.[/b]
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Originally posted by Rajk999
Can you explain why is the third way the greatest blessing?
How exactly did you determine that?
In any case I can confirm that I accept the following from the Bible ;
- that there is a definite order :
First God
Second Christ
Third Man
- that God is the Father and Christ is the Son. Two separate gs of Christ or Paul. I think all it does is divide the brotherhood of Christ unnecessarily.
Can you explain why is the third way the greatest blessing?
How exactly did you determine that?
It is always best to have deep "Amen" in the heart to whatever the Bible teaches. To believe, praise God, thank God, and worship God for what the word of God tells us.
If you have never read this ariticle by one Robert Govett, I hightly recommend it. It is called:
"The Twofoldedness of Divine Truth"
I cannot find the entire booklet online for you.
But I found something very good written on it with its content reviewed.
Here is an ariticle about that classic little booklet:
http://www.affcrit.com/pdfs/2010-Spring/10_01_rf.pdf
In any case I can confirm that I accept the following from the Bible ;
- that there is a definite order :
First God
Second Christ
Third Man
This is a very good order from one standpoint about headship and submission concerning God and man.
There are orders in the Bible concerning the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. They vary.
1.)
"John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from
Him who is and who was and who is coming,
and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful Witness, the Firstborn of the dead, and the Ruler of the kings of the earth." (Rev. 1:4-5a)
Here we see God the Father mentioned first, the Holy Spirit mentioned second, and the Son mentioned third.
2.) "Go therefore and disciple all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19)
Here we have the Father mentioned first followed by the Son followed by the Holy Spirit.
3.) "For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man, that Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith." (Eph. 3:14-17)
Here we have the Father mentioned first followed by the Holy Spirit follwed by Christ the Son.
4.) "One Body and one Spirit, even as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism;
One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." (Eph. 4:4-6)
This order of the Three is the Holy Spirit mentioned first followed by the Lord, the Son, followed by the God and Father.
5.) "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." (2 Cor. 13:14)
Here the order mentioned is the Son Jesus Christ first, the Father second, and the Holy Spirit third.
6.) "But there are distinctions of gifts, but one Spirit;
And there are distinctions of ministries, yet the same Lord;
And there are distinctions of operations, but the same God, who operates all things in all." (1 Cor. 12:4-6)
I believe that here we can understand Paul to mention the order of the Holy Spirit first followed by the Lord Jesus followed by God the Father.
7.) "And having been baptized, Jesus went up immedeately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming upon Him. And behold, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I have found My delight." (Matt.3:16,17)
Here we might consider the implied order of the Son followed by the Spirit followed by the Father.
The Three work as one. God carries out an operation in His triune Being.
- that God is the Father and Christ is the Son. Two separate and distinct entities with different ablities and attributes. There are some things known to God which Christ does not know. They cannot be the same.
There is distinction. There is not separation. For the Word was God in John 1:1 means that there was no separation. But for the Word to be with God - "In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God ..." would mean distinction.
Before I comment more I would say that human language is limited in discribing the inner being of God.
There are two sides to this paradox. There is the side that the TWO are ONE. And there is the side that the ONE is TWO.
How far will you push that the Word was SEPERATE from God ? If you push that overly far you will end up with Tritheism - the belief in three Gods.
On the other hand we should maintain a disticntion between the Word and God; between the Father and Son. If not we may fall into Modalism - the belief that God appeared in three modes each of which was successive and could not exist at the same time.
You spoke of that the Son at times did not know things but the Father did.
I agree with you. I agree that because the Son became a man His finiteness was often expressed as that of any normal man.
Yet on the other hand " ... and the Word was God" (John 1:1)
The Word of life, the Word that was God and became flesh was the God which the disciples HANDLED, especially after His resurrection. They handled the Logos. And that Logos was God (John 1:1)
Here the Apostle John tells us that the disciples handled the Word of life:
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life
(And the life was manifested, and we have seen andtestify and report to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us.) (1 John 1:1,2)
When the Word became flesh the disciples handled the Word that was God, especially in His resurrection state. At no time do I believe that the Word who was God stopped being God and was just the Word.
So we must see some distinction. But I will not go as far to say there was separation. Again, human language is limited to fully put the mysterious triune God into words.
But He is certainly not beyond our experience. We know that when we received Jesus the Son we received God the Father.
"Everyone who denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who confesses the Son has the Father also." (1 John 2:23)
Experiencially the Christians cannot detect any difference or "separation" between the Father and the Son when both as the Divine "WE" have come into the Christian:
" ... and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
- that both have divine qualities.
- that both these statements are compatible :
"Hear O Israel the Lord thy God is one God." and
" My Father and I are one." .. without having to resort to twisting the Bible.
I have not "twisted" the Bible in QUOTING the Bible. "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God." (John 1:1)
Which part of the quotation " ... the Word was God ..." is me "twisting" the Bible ?
The term the trinity is a useless term and adds nothing to the teachings of Christ or Paul. I think all it does is divide the brotherhood of Christ unnecessarily.
Doctrinal disputes can divide the brotherhood. But to enjoy, experience, and live in the Father - Son - Holy Spirit is a great uniting bond of oneness.
The Bible says concerning receiving one another:
"Therefore receive one another, as Christ also received you to the glory of God." (Romans 15:7)
Where I meet we only discern whether a person has been received by Christ. If a person has been received by Jesus as we have been received by Jesus we can be one.
If a brother says he does not like to mention the word "Trinity" but he has been received by Jesus, I would not insist that he has to speak as I speak. This way the local church can be general about our way of expressing in words our beliefs.
You do not like to mention the word "Trinity". That is ok. But I can certainly defend my usage of the word "Trinity". You do not have to talk as I talk. But I will say that the Father and the Son are distinct but not separate.
You do not have to believe this. But if Christ has recceived you as He has mercifully received me, there is no major barrier to us churching together.
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Originally posted by JS357
I always find it unsatisfying (but sometimes necessary) to turn away from a paradox without resolving it. I will describe a trivial example, Achilles and the tortoise, "In a race where the slower has even a little head start, the quickest runner can never overtake the slowest, since the pursuer must first reach the point whence the pursued started, so that the
I'm not being critical; I would say the trinity can only be accepted as a mystery.
It sounds to me like the paradox you are describing is of this form:
The Bible says God is like this.
The Bible says God is like that.
But something makes me think God can't be like this AND like that.
Now I can try to resolve the apparent paradox, or just set aside whatever that 'something' is, since I believe the Bible isn't wrong. (That's how I see what you are doing.)
I would say the 'something' is logic and reason.
I'm not being critical; I would say the trinity can only be accepted as a mystery.
Let me make something as clear to you as I can.
1.) A person can just say "Trinity" is a mystery. My logic cannot resolve it. But I go on to enjoy the Father, love the Son, walk in the Spirit and live in the realm of God.
2.) A person can just say "Trinity" is a mystery which my logic cannot resolve. And I just go on and live my life not paying any more attention to the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit for that matter.
Do you grasp my burden here ? Way # 1 is what I seek to live.
I do not advocate throwing up hands on the concept of the "Triune God" and turning our backs on God.
It is ok to confess we cannot fully explain or fully understand the mystery. But we should be hungry to live unto God and in the realm of God.
Originally posted by jaywillAre you sure you are clear about what you believe.
[quote] It sounds to me like the paradox you are describing is of this form:
The Bible says God is like this.
The Bible says God is like that.
But something makes me think God can't be like this AND like that.
Now I can try to resolve the apparent paradox, or just set aside whatever that 'something' is, since I believe the Bible isn't wrong. (Th ...[text shortened]... and the mystery. But we should be hungry to live unto God and in the realm of God.
You had first suggested that an understanding of Trinity and Triune God was not necessary for salvation.
Now you are implying that someone who does not understand the concept of the Triune God is turing their back on God.
So on the one hand when someone corners you and you have to answer you say its not essential but every now and again you imply that you are somehow better, or more righteous, or more special than others who either dont believe or dont understand.
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Originally posted by jaywillRajk - I think Jaywill is including you in category #1
[quote]
Let me make something as clear to you as I can.
1.) A person can just say "Trinity" is a mystery. My logic cannot resolve it. But I go on to enjoy the Father, love the Son, walk in the Spirit and live in the realm of God.
2.) A person can just say "Trinity" is a mystery which my logic cannot resolve. And I just go on and live my life not p ...[text shortened]... e throwing up hands on the concept of the "Triune God" and turning our backs on God.
Originally posted by Rajk999
Are you sure you are clear about what you believe.
You had first suggested that an understanding of Trinity and Triune God was not necessary for salvation.
Now you are implying that someone who does not understand the concept of the Triune God is turing their back on God.
So on the one hand when someone corners you and you have to answer you say it ...[text shortened]... tter, or more righteous, or more special than others who either dont believe or dont understand.
Are you sure you are clear about what you believe.
You had first suggested that an understanding of Trinity and Triune God was not necessary for salvation.
Now you are implying that someone who does not understand the concept of the Triune God is turing their back on God.
So on the one hand when someone corners you and you have to answer you say its not essential but every now and again you imply that you are somehow better, or more righteous, or more special than others who either dont believe or dont understand.
Now you misunderstanding me.
The greatest misunderstanding of my words and thought occured in this second sentence -
Now you are implying that someone who does not understand the concept of the Triune God is turing their back on God.
It was difficult for me to get past the shock of this sentence.
It does not fit my experience very well either.
I didn't understand very much. I knew when I called on the name of Jesus God came to me.
Right then though I could not have given you a theological talk on the Trinity. I might have said "The God Whom Jesus revealed". I might have put it in some other words.
But I told you that we receive one another as we detect that we have been received by Christ according to Paul's instruction.
A little talk with someone who has been born again, and often you can tell that they have met the Lord Jesus. Since we taste that Jesus has received him we do not insist that he give a clear dissertation on the Trinity.
Some years latter I HAD to learn something about the Trinity because the JWs came to me and told me that I was not really saved yet. But I knew I was.
I went to God and prayed and was assured that I had met Christ.
Anyway, I think you misunderstood me.
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So on the one hand when someone corners you and you have to answer you say its not essential but every now and again you imply that you are somehow better, or more righteous, or more special than others who either dont believe or dont understand.
NO. NO. and NO.
What Jesus will examine is how each of us LIVED.
Not better. Not holier than thou.
Now it is my opinion that if you are clear that the God within you is Jesus, I think you will be greatly benefitted from that as opposed to thinking that God is separated from the Jesus within you. I eventually would help new believers to see the Three-oneness of God. Why not ? It is biblical.
But there are those who love the Lord Jesus more than I do who might not talk exactly as I do.
Rest. Love the Lord.
But, I CAN defend my usage of the word "Trinity". Sorry.