Originally posted by Coletti Knowing that something is wrong doesn't mean you won't do it. Any 5-yr-old caught with his hand in the cookie jar knows that. He knows it's wrong, but he still want's that cookie.
Agreed, but what's your point? The fear of God certainly doesn't keep people in line if that's what you're implying? Look no further than the Catholic priesthood for evidence.
Originally posted by darvlay Okay. I will agree with that. However, it doesn't make dj2becker any less of a dope for trying to put words in my mouth.
Moral constructs have been instilled into our society over centuries and we learn them early in life while our minds are still sponges, but if the two of us happened to have been raised in an environment of lawlessness who says that we would inherently know that theft, murder, etc. are wrong?
I keep seeing people using societal valus as moral values.
In the absence of society : nobody would actually "own" anything so "theft" would just be taking ;and since there would be no laws to declare it "murder" : killing would just be killing.
Mankind had laws defining theft and murder before it had the concept of "One God"
Protoman probably learned as a child that taking Mom's dinner was theft and wasn't exactly penalty free. He could only hope that Mom had rules about not killing.
Originally posted by dj2becker The meaning of man's life is never found only in life itself, if that were true the meaning of life would disappear as soon as man died. It always lies in something that is more than himself, and the deepest meanings of his life and the world is found in God who not only created him and the world, but with a purpose and therefore with a meaning.
For t ...[text shortened]... god to give meaning to his life because he cannot go on living if his existance is meaningless.
The christian religion states that your purpose is either to become a mindless automaton incapable of sinning anymore (deprived of free will at last?!), or to fry for all eternity.
Seriously, how about believing in something because it rings true in your mind, rather than for feel-good reasons? I'm not trying to question the sincerity of your belief, I am just pointing out that it is badly motivated to believe something because one would rather it be true.
Originally posted by BigDoggProblem The christian religion states that your purpose is either to become a mindless automaton incapable of sinning anymore (deprived of free will at last?!), or to fry for all eternity.
Seriously, how about believing in something because it rings true in your mind, rather than for feel-good reasons? I'm not trying to question the sincerity of your beli ...[text shortened]... out that it is badly motivated to believe something because one would rather it be true.
That's rather presumptuous of you. There are many things about Christianity I don't "feel good" about. You are questioning the motives of people's beliefs without cause. In doing so, it shows the sort of hypocrisy that is common of many who cast judgment on the faith of others.
Also, your view of free will is naive. In no way does a lack of free will mean you are an automaton. Nor would any Christian - regardless of his free will views - claim a Christian is incapable of sinning. There are some black and white issues in Christianity - but you have missed them.
Originally posted by Coletti Knowing that something is wrong doesn't mean you won't do it. Any 5-yr-old caught with his hand in the cookie jar knows that. He knows it's wrong, but he still want's that cookie.
You would concede that knowing something is wrong at least makes you less likely to do it, would'nt you? If Man's basic nature was "evil" or "vile" or "depraved" knowing something was wrong would make him more likely to do it. Since the opposite is true in reality, isn't that a strong argument against your view of Man's basic nature?
And most persons have slightly more developed moral standards than a 5 year old.
Originally posted by dj2becker The meaning of man's life is never found only in life itself, if that were true the meaning of life would disappear as soon as man died. It always lies in something that is more than himself, and the deepest meanings of his life and the world is found in God who not only created him and the world, but with a purpose and therefore with a meaning.
For t ...[text shortened]... god to give meaning to his life because he cannot go on living if his existance is meaningless.
Many people have meaningful lives without a Bible-Thumper view of God. Look around you.
Originally posted by Starrman Exactly! So don't be so childish and presume to patronise others who are as capable of living without the idea of god as you are with it.
Originally posted by no1marauder You would concede that knowing something is wrong at least makes you less likely to do it, would'nt you? If Man's basic nature was "evil" or "vile" or "depraved" knowing something was wrong would make him more likely to do it. Since the opposite is true in reality, isn't that a strong argument against your view of Man's basic nature?
And most persons have slightly more developed moral standards than a 5 year old.
No1, go to Africa or the Congo and then you can see Man's true nature without the luxury of growing up in suburbia using mom and dad's credit card.
Originally posted by no1marauder ... If Man's basic nature was "evil" or "vile" or "depraved" knowing something was wrong would make him more likely to do it. Since the opposite is true in reality, ....
You have no foundation for this assertion. It is your belief that people are good.
What is certain is that the evidence that man is good is questionable. If man were good by nature, then the only suffering in the world would be accidental. And you could not account for it by saying it's a few bad apples.
What you don't want to admit is that temptation is a reality. No one is "tempted" to do good. We are tempted to steal and cheat, maybe just a little, maybe a lot. We call it "white lies" to excuse ourselves. We justify our actions by saying everyone else does the same. But we are all sinners by nature. We want what is not ours, what we have not earned.
It is universally true that we all desire things we know are wrong. The question is, how do we account for this? And I have one way to account for it that you do not accept. But all you have done is say I'm wrong. "Since the opposite it true" according to the word of no1marauder.
Originally posted by Starrman Everyone I know, theist or atheist thinks there is a meaning to life, Atheists merely have different ways of classifying it.
This isn't very clear. Tentatively, I disagree that there is some 'higher purpose' or 'meaning' to life (mine or life in general). However, I think we need to be very much more clear, because the notions of 'meaning' and 'life' are somewhat nebulous in this thread.
Originally posted by Coletti That's rather presumptuous of you. There are many things about Christianity I don't "feel good" about. You are questioning the motives of people's beliefs without cause. In doing so, it shows the sort of hypocrisy that is common of many who cast judgment on the faith of others.
Also, your view of free will is naive. In no way does a lack of free w ...[text shortened]... e of sinning. There are some black and white issues in Christianity - but you have missed them.
First of all, you are the one who made the error of presumption. My response was to dj2becker, who had offered up a 'feel-good' motive for believing. Sometimes, it's not all about you.
Second, let me clarify something from earlier. My wording was not meant to apply to life on earth, but rather life after death. The ultimate end of every human, according to christianity, is heaven or hell. The christian in heaven seems much like an automaton; he stops sinning and worships god all day long.
Originally posted by Coletti You have no foundation for this assertion. It is your belief that people are good.
What is certain is that the evidence that man is good is questionable. If man were good by nature, then the only suffering in the world would be accidental. And you could not account for it by saying it's a few bad apples.
What you don't want to admit is that tem ...[text shortened]... ave done is say I'm wrong. "Since the opposite it true" according to the word of no1marauder.
Let me offer an alternative viewpoint.
Man is a mixture of both bad and good.
If man had no good at all in him, then there would be no acts of benevolence and kindness. Surely the good side of man cannot be dismissed out of hand just because he does wrong as well.
It is too harsh a judgement to say man is evil overall just because he is not perfect. Would we condemn man because he tells a lie? Instead of tagging people with the 'sinner' label, why don't we respond to each individual action as that action merits? In other words, reward good, discourage wrongdoing, and avoid needless value-judgements.
Originally posted by Darfius No1, go to Africa or the Congo and then you can see Man's true nature without the luxury of growing up in suburbia using mom and dad's credit card.
Having a snot nose kid say this to me is really rich, Darfius. I didn't grow up in suburbia and the people who raised me never had a car, forget a credit card. You're an presumptous nitwit to make such a post. I see Man's true nature every day and so do you, but you are too full of hatred for your own kind to accept the evidence of your own eyes.
11 Apr '05 16:21
Is there any meaning in life without God?
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